MOndrian easel: why the generate view button disappeared? - Moose-dev

Tudor Girba

4 Oct 4 Oct

7:47 a.m.

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :). But, then again, you do not do that because you actually do not need this one. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 07:39, stephane ducasse wrote:

...

HI guys I did a demo yesterday and the new little icon does not work from a ui perspective. When you do change like that it would be good that: - they are discussed in the mailing-list - that proposed changed are not worse than before: a check button is not an actuator it is a check box. Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier."

Reply

Alexandre Bergel

2:34 p.m.

New subject: MOndrian easel: why the generate view button disappeared?

The new easel is indeed nice. However, I feel that the examples should be available. This is what people use the most. Having a kind of help, on what Mondrian is about would also be cool. This is a general comment about Moose in general. There are plenty of option that I have no idea what they are about. I see there is Moose Help. Mondrian has also one. We could add it? Alexandre On 4 Oct 2011, at 02:47, Tudor Girba wrote:

...

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :). But, then again, you do not do that because you actually do not need this one. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 07:39, stephane ducasse wrote:

HI guys I did a demo yesterday and the new little icon does not work from a ui perspective. When you do change like that it would be good that: - they are discussed in the mailing-list - that proposed changed are not worse than before: a check button is not an actuator it is a check box. Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Reply

Tudor Girba

10:34 p.m.

Hi, The non-refreshing of text in some cases is a known issue and it is indeed a bug in the Glamour rendering. I have been asking for a proper way to get these updates on the Pharo mailing list, but I did not get a full solution yet. Here is the issue: http://code.google.com/p/moose-technology/issues/detail?id=701 It would be great to get any help in this area. Cheers, Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 16:06, Nicolas Anquetil wrote:

...

+1 for the example currently I use the Easel window from the "main moose menu" which is still "old style". It seems there are some issues with the new button. Sometimes, when we changed the script, clicking on the button would not consider the chqnges but still use the previous script. so we had to click on it again, but it also seems it does not do qnything if the script does not change, so we had to fake a change by putting a non significant space somewhere ... If needed, I can try to give more formal replication instructions. nicolas ----- Mail original -----

De: "Alexandre Bergel" <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> À: "Moose-related development" <moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch> Envoyé: Mardi 4 Octobre 2011 14:34:30 Objet: [Moose-dev] Re: MOndrian easel: why the generate view button disappeared? The new easel is indeed nice. However, I feel that the examples should be available. This is what people use the most. Having a kind of help, on what Mondrian is about would also be cool. This is a general comment about Moose in general. There are plenty of option that I have no idea what they are about. I see there is Moose Help. Mondrian has also one. We could add it? Alexandre On 4 Oct 2011, at 02:47, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :). But, then again, you do not do that because you actually do not need this one. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 07:39, stephane ducasse wrote:

HI guys I did a demo yesterday and the new little icon does not work from a ui perspective. When you do change like that it would be good that: - they are discussed in the mailing-list - that proposed changed are not worse than before: a check button is not an actuator it is a check box. Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

_______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

Reply

Tudor Girba

4 Oct 4 Oct

10:37 p.m.

Hi Alex, I am happy you like it. I disagree for having the examples in the main editor, though. The use case related to examples is not the same as the one related to editing in "production". But, there should be a browser of examples, just like we have one for Glamour. This can serve very nicely as a documentation. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 14:34, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

...

The new easel is indeed nice. However, I feel that the examples should be available. This is what people use the most. Having a kind of help, on what Mondrian is about would also be cool. This is a general comment about Moose in general. There are plenty of option that I have no idea what they are about. I see there is Moose Help. Mondrian has also one. We could add it? Alexandre On 4 Oct 2011, at 02:47, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :). But, then again, you do not do that because you actually do not need this one. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 07:39, stephane ducasse wrote:

HI guys I did a demo yesterday and the new little icon does not work from a ui perspective. When you do change like that it would be good that: - they are discussed in the mailing-list - that proposed changed are not worse than before: a check button is not an actuator it is a check box. Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "What is more important: To be happy, or to make happy?"

Reply

Tudor Girba

10:31 p.m.

Hi Stephan, Sure. I mentioned accept for the icon, not for the current design. In the current design of the easel, you get the toolbar with actions displayed, which is a significant improvement over what exists in Pharo. Cheers, Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 17:55, Stephan Eggermont wrote:

...

On 4 okt 2011, at 07:47, Tudor Girba wrote:

You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get.

For some versions of 'works'. I still remember that the strange modality of the class browser was one of the things that stopped me from 'getting' smalltalk the first time I tried it (and the second). No visible feedback on the availability of a (different) context menu, like in the Seaside panel, is a major issue in the discoverability of the user interface. Currently, the only way to get proficient in using Smalltalk is to sit next to an experienced Smalltalker. Even though Pharo is making good improvements, there is still way too much hidden functionality that is different from 'mainstream' environments. Stephan _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one."

Reply

Tudor Girba

8:37 a.m.

On 5 Oct 2011, at 08:08, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

...

On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:31 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi Stephan, Sure. I mentioned accept for the icon, not for the current design. In the current design of the easel, you get the toolbar with actions displayed, which is a significant improvement over what exists in Pharo.

where

Always on the top right of the place you are working. In the case of the easel, you get it on top of the editor. Doru

...

Cheers, Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 17:55, Stephan Eggermont wrote:

On 4 okt 2011, at 07:47, Tudor Girba wrote:

You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get.

For some versions of 'works'. I still remember that the strange modality of the class browser was one of the things that stopped me from 'getting' smalltalk the first time I tried it (and the second). No visible feedback on the availability of a (different) context menu, like in the Seaside panel, is a major issue in the discoverability of the user interface. Currently, the only way to get proficient in using Smalltalk is to sit next to an experienced Smalltalker. Even though Pharo is making good improvements, there is still way too much hidden functionality that is different from 'mainstream' environments. Stephan _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

_______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one."

Reply

Stéphane Ducasse

8:57 p.m.

On Oct 4, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:

...

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :).

where? I do not understand at all what you are saying.

...

From a user the fact that we compile code in the back is arcane.

It is an implementation details. The button "generate view" (even if refresh view would be better) is simpler and from an end user it conveys what is does. The check box is bad because as a mondrian user I have to guess that may be I should click on it, I have to guess that code is generated (while I do not give a shit of knowing that). Doru did you try to on a newbie the basic on user interface design: ask three guys to tell what they think aloud. Because with andre we thought it was a bug. But we are probably stupid. Now since you are doing the changes excellent, let us keep them But I think that they are bad. Stef

...

But, then again, you do not do that because you actually do not need this one. Doru On 4 Oct 2011, at 07:39, stephane ducasse wrote:

HI guys I did a demo yesterday and the new little icon does not work from a ui perspective. When you do change like that it would be good that: - they are discussed in the mailing-list - that proposed changed are not worse than before: a check button is not an actuator it is a check box. Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Reply

Stéphane Ducasse

5 Oct 5 Oct

8:10 a.m.

On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:27 PM, Tudor Girba wrote:

...

Hi, On 4 Oct 2011, at 20:57, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

On Oct 4, 2011, at 7:47 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi Stef, This was announced prominently, but nobody reacted. I am happy that at least now someone noticed :). You do not have an accept button for source code, and this still works somehow. You do not need one here either. At most you need a toolbar, and this is what you get. Regarding the icon, this is highly used in multiple user interfaces including in Pharo: just right click and look at the menu :).

where?

Exactly :). You never look at the contextual menu when you accept your changes. Once you got use to the metaphor, it's just natural.

I do not understand at all what you are saying.

Right click on a code pane, and you will see that accept has a green check icon.

From a user the fact that we compile code in the back is arcane.

It is an implementation details. The button "generate view" (even if refresh view would be better) is simpler and from an end user it conveys what is does.

As I said. Perhaps you have a better icon in mind, but please keep in mind that from this point on everywhere in Moose we have a constant metaphor for handling actions.

The check box is bad because as a mondrian user I have to guess that may be I should click on it, I have to guess that code is generated (while I do not give a shit of knowing that). Doru did you try to on a newbie the basic on user interface design: ask three guys to tell what they think aloud. Because with andre we thought it was a bug. But we are probably stupid.

You are not stupid. You just expected to see what you were used to see.

Now since you are doing the changes excellent, let us keep them But I think that they are bad.

Thanks. I think they are not. But, again, I do not see why this escalation. Please let's have a conversation without ultimatums.

because you give the impression that there is no discussion possible. As a user of the easel I do not need to know that the code get compile. I just need something in my referential refresh erase publish No accept or I do no know what

Reply