[Moose-dev] Re: can you say to alex that edges are slow?

Hi, When you want to invalidate a presentation, you should use explicit means. For example, the model should announce the change, and the presentation should know what to do with that. This is what we do in Glamour and it works well. Like this, the presentation can create the data structure it wants and use that until an update is wanted. This behavior should be the default of Mondrian. Cheers, Doru On 10 Jun 2010, at 07:36, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >>> enableCache should always be on. When exactly don't we want that? :) >> >> When used with Moose yes. But you may want to see changes in a view when you change your model. > > but then you invalidate the cache of the associated nodes and edges. > > >>> If you want to update the visualization you should redo it via another means. >> >> Yes. I am working on this right now. It shouldn't be too hard >> >> Alexandre >> >>> >>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 22:19, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> >>>> I can add something like: >>>> MOShape>>enableCache >>>> MOShape>>disableCache >>>> >>>> In that case, width: and height: will be computed just once per node. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:09, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Doru, >>>>> >>>>> Sure, we will see the computation in blueprint, and make a cache. >>>>> Now, the problem is more general: >>>>> I have the same problem with eDSM: Some edges and nodes make computation during rendering, which slow down the visualization. >>>>> >>>>> So, my question is more general: maybe Mondrian should integrate the cache system, not each work we do. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Jannik >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 21:58 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 17:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arf, the transmission of the file has probably failed. >>>>>>> So, what is done with bluprint: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Load Moose in Moose, >>>>>>> Take all model packages, generate outgoing blueprint. >>>>>>> It is easier like that :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, there is something that I do not understand: why Mondrian compute all the time. >>>>>>> Should not it compute one time and put in cache results ? >>>>>>> If it is done in Mondrian, it will be more compatible with all things that we can do ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not saying that Mondrian is doing that, I am saying that if we want to debug the problem we want to isolate the case :). That is why, if we just want to see how slow/fast the rendering is, we want as less extra computation as possible in the benchmark. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 17:06 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Something seems to be wrong with the zip file because the decompression fails. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to try just the perfromance, please just create a new script that explicitly creates the nodes and edges and sets the size and color of shapes. It could be that the computation is problematic, or it could be that Mondrian calls this computation too many times. Using such a script allows us to get an idea of where the problem is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ok, I understand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So the perfect thing is to compute all metrics before the script, or use a moose cache. >>>>>>>>> I think that blueprint use cook, with a cache. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can fing t image here: >>>>>>>>> http://jannik-laval.eu/assets/files/blueprint.zip >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 16:08 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we will do this. >>>>>>>>>>> Now, I do not understand the relation between metrics (which is computed before visualization) and scrolling the canvas. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Does Mondrian compute something when we scroll ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mondrian itself no. But it evaluates the block you provide when defining shape (e.g., height: and width:) each time a refresh is done. Which occurs when you scroll. >>>>>>>>>> I would like to verify if the metrics you use are really computed just once. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 15:46 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It absolutely possible that I missed opportunities for optimization. But I would like to be sure that the metrics you use are not responsible for the slowness. Can you produce a complete sequence on how I can reproduce the problem, starting from a Moose one-click image? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 09:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just see Package Blueprint working on Pharo1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Remi shows a case study : >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a visualization of 50 packages (so, not a lot), it is clearly difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is not an edges problem, I do not know if this problem comes from Mondrian or Morphic... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But for sure, it is not attractive. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian exists to generate faster visualization by scripting. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If the visualization is not scrollable, and not usable with modern computers as we have, do you think Mondrian is useful ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is here: We write one time the script, we generate frequently visualization. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Users prefer a fast visualization than a fast scripting language. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The perfect is to have the two. And I think that Mondrian can do this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should do work on it (an engineer ?). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my reflexion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 14:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already tried with a complex case. Indeed it is a lot faster than before, thank you :D >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is what I would expect. There was a bug introduced with the zOrder. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should have similar speed up on pharo 1.0. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The #5 is a treeLayout (with less edges) and on it I couldn't move the scrollbar.. got stuck for minutes. I tried again, and I had the same problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure that the problem comes from Mondrian? You can use Kai, the profiler I worked on to easily see where the problem comes from. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> KaiProfiler viewProfiling: [ "your code here" ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.squeaksource.com/Spy.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will check if i am doing something different for that visualization (thought is the simplest one), and will let you know. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2010, at 14:46, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Veronica (and Jannik), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem should now be fixed. The last version of Mondrian is 3 times faster when displaying inner nodes and edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it solve your problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2010, at 05:27, Veronica Isabel Uquillas Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inspecting visualizations when many edges are present is really a problem... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there any improvement with respect to this problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 22:53, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok. I have a set of benchmarks that noticed a slowdown. I hope this will be addressed soon (a student is currently working on it). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 07:59, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The script make a while and crash the image. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 23:07 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik, can you try to generate a DSM with the version Mondrian-Alexandre_Bergel.355.mcz and tell me whether it is faster or not ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess Veronica can not do it since dashed lines did not exist in 355. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 15:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the same for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With an eDSM, it is really difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already make some reports of this problem... But I am not sure it is caused by edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 21:31 , Veronica Isabel Uquillas Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when my visualizations have many elements in general is slow, but sometimes is impossible (or takes more than 1 min) to move the scrollbar or switch to other windows... I think the edges are causing this problem, but i am not sure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will send you an example of this case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 20:09, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are edges slower than before? I recently noticed a slowdown, but it is not that apparent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many edges are intended to be defined? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 13:41, stephane ducasse wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you do not tell him, he will never notice it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First Rule: give feedback! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Every thing should have the right to be different." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 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