problems with fuel serializing non-integer numbers

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Tudor Girba

15 Oct 2011 15 Oct '11

9:48 a.m.

Hi Mariano, hi Martin, As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them. To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and run the FuelMooseTests: http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti… You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else? Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

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Stéphane Ducasse

15 Oct 15 Oct

9:50 a.m.

Thanks doru for the report! Stef On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:

...

Martin Dias

3:10 p.m.

Hi I am downloading and will look at it. Martín On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr

...

wrote:

...

Thanks doru for the report! Stef On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote:

Hi Mariano, hi Martin, As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame

descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and run

the FuelMooseTests:

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

> Cheers, > Doru

> -- > www.tudorgirba.com

> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

> _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Tudor Girba

4:42 p.m.

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote:

...

_______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

Tudor Girba

18 Oct 18 Oct

10:34 p.m.

Hi, Any news related to this topic? Cheers, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote:

...

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote:

_______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

-- www.tudorgirba.com "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."

Mariano Martinez Peck

10:40 p.m.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote:

...

Hi, Any news related to this topic?

Both Martin and I could reproduce the problem but we couldn't fix it. We are a little bit busy because we are finishing the paper... If course Fuel can serialize Float, so the problem is in another place. So far we think that there is some instVar than changes while we are serializing the graph. Like if at the beginning it was 0.0 but then something different. So it looks like a instVar which is a float and changes while we are serializing it. That's all we can get for the moment. Cheers

...

Cheers, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote:

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote: > Hi > I am downloading and will look at it. > > Martín > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <

stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:

> Thanks doru for the report! > > > Stef > > On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi Mariano, hi Martin, >> >> As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame

descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

>> >> To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and

run the FuelMooseTests:

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

>>> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

>>> Cheers, >>> Doru

>>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com

>>> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."

-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Martin Dias

19 Oct 19 Oct

5:47 a.m.

Yes, I couldn't invest many time to the fix it. I will continue during the week. Martin On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>wrote;wrote:

Hi, Any news related to this topic?

Cheers, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote:

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote: > Hi > I am downloading and will look at it. > > Martín > > On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <

stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:

> Thanks doru for the report! > > > Stef > > On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi Mariano, hi Martin, >> >> As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame

descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

>> >> To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and

run the FuelMooseTests:

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

>>> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

>>> Cheers, >>> Doru

>>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com

>>> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Tudor Girba

8:05 a.m.

Hi, Interesting observation. Perhaps, the problem could come from the following situation: We now introduced meta-described properties for MooseEntities that compute the values lazily. Furthermore, the values are not stored in instance variables, but in a dictionary in MooseEntityState. I am not sure how exactly you are traversing the object graph and what you are serializing. I thought that you go exclusively through the meta-description. In this case, you should not have this issue at all. But, if you get to the object level, things can change. Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 05:47, Martin Dias wrote:

...

Yes, I couldn't invest many time to the fix it. I will continue during the week. Martin On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: Hi, Any news related to this topic? Both Martin and I could reproduce the problem but we couldn't fix it. We are a little bit busy because we are finishing the paper... If course Fuel can serialize Float, so the problem is in another place. So far we think that there is some instVar than changes while we are serializing the graph. Like if at the beginning it was 0.0 but then something different. So it looks like a instVar which is a float and changes while we are serializing it. That's all we can get for the moment. Cheers Cheers, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote:

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote:

_______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

-- www.tudorgirba.com "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier."

Mariano Martinez Peck

12:43 p.m.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:05 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote:

...

Indeed, that sounds related to the problem. I really never touch a line in the Fuel extension for Fuel nor to the Moose model, so I can be asking non-sense. Anyway, we have this method: shouldIgnore: attribute withAll: values "Copied from FMRepositoryVisitor>>ignoreProperty:withAll:" ^ values isEmpty or: [ attribute isDerived or: [ attribute type == FM3MetaDescription boolean and: [ values size == 1 and: [ values first == false ]]]] or attributes ^attributes ifNil: [ attributes := (repository metamodel descriptionOf: theClass) allAttributes reject: [ :anAttribute | anAttribute isDerived ] ]. and things like that... so may question is , maybe there are some new attributes/properties which should be considered as derived for example? cheers I am not sure how exactly you are traversing the object graph and what you

...

are serializing. I thought that you go exclusively through the meta-description. In this case, you should not have this issue at all. But, if you get to the object level, things can change. Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 05:47, Martin Dias wrote:

Yes, I couldn't invest many time to the fix it. I will continue during

the week.

Martin On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <

marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>

wrote:

Hi, Any news related to this topic? Both Martin and I could reproduce the problem but we couldn't fix it. We

are a little bit busy because we are finishing the paper... If course Fuel can serialize Float, so the problem is in another place.

So far we think that there is some instVar than changes while we are

serializing the graph. Like if at the beginning it was 0.0 but then something different. So it looks like a instVar which is a float and changes while we are serializing it. That's all we can get for the moment.

Cheers Cheers, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote: > Thanks! > > Keep us posted, > Doru > > > On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote: > >> Hi >> I am downloading and will look at it. >> >> Martín >> >> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <

stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:

>> Thanks doru for the report! >> >> >> Stef >> >> On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> Hi Mariano, hi Martin, >>> >>> As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame

descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

>>> >>> To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and

run the FuelMooseTests:

>>>

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

>>>

> >>> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

>>>

> >>> Cheers, > >>> Doru

>>>

> >>> -- > >>> www.tudorgirba.com

>>>

> >>> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

>>>

> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Moose-dev mailing list > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." > > > > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier."

-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Mariano Martinez Peck

9:23 p.m.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:05 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote:

Hi, Interesting observation. Perhaps, the problem could come from the following situation: We now introduced meta-described properties for MooseEntities that compute the values lazily.

I forgto to say something. I don't understand why while traversing the graph we could trigger that lazy computation. Are they getters? can you imagen a why that we execute them (even without wanting) while traversing the graph?

...

Furthermore, the values are not stored in instance variables, but in a

dictionary in MooseEntityState.

Yes, I couldn't invest many time to the fix it. I will continue during

the week.

Martin On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <

marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>

wrote:

Hi, Any news related to this topic? Both Martin and I could reproduce the problem but we couldn't fix it. We

are a little bit busy because we are finishing the paper... If course Fuel can serialize Float, so the problem is in another place.

So far we think that there is some instVar than changes while we are

stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:

descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

>>> >>> To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image

and run the FuelMooseTests:

>>>

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

>>>

> >>> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

>>>

> >>> Cheers, > >>> Doru

>>>

> >>> -- > >>> www.tudorgirba.com

>>>

> >>> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

>>>

-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Tudor Girba

11:02 p.m.

Hi, Yes, they are getters. I now solved the problem by marking the metrics as <derived> which means that they do not get saved. This was needed in any case. But, still the error that we got in Fuel might still be around. Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 21:23, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:05 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: Hi, Interesting observation. Perhaps, the problem could come from the following situation: We now introduced meta-described properties for MooseEntities that compute the values lazily. I forgto to say something. I don't understand why while traversing the graph we could trigger that lazy computation. Are they getters? can you imagen a why that we execute them (even without wanting) while traversing the graph? Furthermore, the values are not stored in instance variables, but in a dictionary in MooseEntityState. Indeed, that sounds related to the problem. I really never touch a line in the Fuel extension for Fuel nor to the Moose model, so I can be asking non-sense. Anyway, we have this method: shouldIgnore: attribute withAll: values "Copied from FMRepositoryVisitor>>ignoreProperty:withAll:" ^ values isEmpty or: [ attribute isDerived or: [ attribute type == FM3MetaDescription boolean and: [ values size == 1 and: [ values first == false ]]]] or attributes ^attributes ifNil: [ attributes := (repository metamodel descriptionOf: theClass) allAttributes reject: [ :anAttribute | anAttribute isDerived ] ]. and things like that... so may question is , maybe there are some new attributes/properties which should be considered as derived for example? cheers I am not sure how exactly you are traversing the object graph and what you are serializing. I thought that you go exclusively through the meta-description. In this case, you should not have this issue at all. But, if you get to the object level, things can change. Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 05:47, Martin Dias wrote:

Thanks! Keep us posted, Doru On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote:

Hi I am downloading and will look at it. Martín On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: Thanks doru for the report! Stef On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi Mariano, hi Martin, > > As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on Fame descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them. > > To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image and run the FuelMooseTests: > http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti… > > You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else? > > Cheers, > Doru > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "It's not how it is, it is how we see it." > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

-- www.tudorgirba.com "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, one might have better chances to win by moving slower."

-- www.tudorgirba.com "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

-- www.tudorgirba.com "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done."

Mariano Martinez Peck

11:06 p.m.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote:

...

Hi, Yes, they are getters. I now solved the problem by marking the metrics as <derived> which means that they do not get saved.

Good news! This means that the tests are green? This was needed in any case. But, still the error that we got in Fuel might

...

still be around.

Well, this is not a bug/error but instead a serializer limitation: if a certain object of the graph changes while we are serializing it, there may be errors.

...

Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 21:23, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <

marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:05 AM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>

wrote:

Hi, Interesting observation. Perhaps, the problem could come from the

following situation:

We now introduced meta-described properties for MooseEntities that

compute the values lazily.

I forgto to say something. I don't understand why while traversing the

graph we could trigger that lazy computation. Are they getters? can you imagen a why that we execute them (even without wanting) while traversing the graph?

Furthermore, the values are not stored in instance variables, but in a

dictionary in MooseEntityState.

Indeed, that sounds related to the problem. I really never touch a line

in the Fuel extension for Fuel nor to the Moose model, so I can be asking non-sense. Anyway, we have this method:

shouldIgnore: attribute withAll: values "Copied from FMRepositoryVisitor>>ignoreProperty:withAll:" ^ values isEmpty or: [ attribute isDerived or: [ attribute type == FM3MetaDescription boolean and: [ values size == 1 and: [ values first == false ]]]] or attributes ^attributes ifNil: [ attributes := (repository metamodel

descriptionOf: theClass) allAttributes reject: [ :anAttribute | anAttribute isDerived ] ].

and things like that... so may question is , maybe there are some new

attributes/properties which should be considered as derived for example?

cheers I am not sure how exactly you are traversing the object graph and what

you are serializing. I thought that you go exclusively through the meta-description. In this case, you should not have this issue at all. But, if you get to the object level, things can change.

Cheers, Doru On 19 Oct 2011, at 05:47, Martin Dias wrote: > Yes, I couldn't invest many time to the fix it. I will continue during

the week.

> > Martin > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <

marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>

wrote:

> Hi, > > Any news related to this topic? > > > Both Martin and I could reproduce the problem but we couldn't fix it.

We are a little bit busy because we are finishing the paper... If course Fuel can serialize Float, so the problem is in another place.

> So far we think that there is some instVar than changes while we are

> > Cheers > > Cheers, > Doru > > On 15 Oct 2011, at 16:42, Tudor Girba wrote: > > > Thanks! > > > > Keep us posted, > > Doru > > > > > > On 15 Oct 2011, at 15:10, Martin Dias wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> I am downloading and will look at it. > >> > >> Martín > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 4:50 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <

stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:

> >> Thanks doru for the report! > >> > >> > >> Stef > >> > >> On Oct 15, 2011, at 9:48 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Mariano, hi Martin, > >>> > >>> As you know, we are using Fuel for serializing objects based on

Fame descriptions. We recently added new properties to Fame that contain number values that are not integer (e.g., Float), and now we get the problem that Fuel does not seem to be able to serialize them.

> >>> > >>> To reproduce the problem, you can download the latest moose image

and run the FuelMooseTests:

> >>>

http://ci.moosetechnology.org/job/moose-latest-dev/lastSuccessfulBuild/arti…

> >>>

> > >>> You will see that there are some 44 errors due to looking up values in the dictionary. Could please you take a look and see if the problem is in Fuel or maybe somewhere else?

> >>>

> > >>> Cheers, > > >>> Doru

> >>>

> > >>> -- > > >>> www.tudorgirba.com

> >>>

> > >>> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it."

> >>>

> > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Moose-dev mailing list > > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > > > -- > > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > > > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > www.tudorgirba.com > > > > "The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mariano > > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Speaking louder won't make the point worthier." > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Not knowing how to do something is not an argument for how it cannot be done."

-- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Martin Dias

20 Oct 20 Oct

12:05 a.m.

Ok. I imagine that that lazy metrics' getter calculates the result each time it is performed, isn't it? In our Moose extension we have problems when that happens. Martin On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com>wrote;wrote: