Hi!
I am doing my first steps in learning Moose and also Roassal. Is it possible to start Roassal Easel and Moose Panel from the world menu and add a model afterwards?
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image? Is there an example available how one could stream information on a Roassal view? Did somebody already visualize a LAN network? What would be a good framework/project to do such analysis?
Thank you for any advice! Sebastian
On 13/03/15 05:32, Sebastian Heidbrink wrote:
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image?
One doesn't... There are several approaches that might help: - wait a bit for spur 64 bit vm. - do feature extraction and only store the relevant information in your image. This is something we use all the time. Lots of tools are able to generate csv or json (or mse). - split the data over multiple images, do the calculations for the visualization in them and push the results to one image that only does the rendering. The nice thing is that it allows you to use all cores of your machine, the problem is how to divide your data and deal with border-crossing data. For some visualizations, you can even do the rendering in parallel.
Stephan
Hi Stephan!
The only option apart from waiting for the 64Bit vm would be spawning the calcualtions. Which Pharo framework is the best suitable currently? TaskIT? Bordercrossing shouldn't be huge issue since my visualizations would not be too crazy kind of calculations. Parallel rendering is this multiple views at a time, or multiple processes on the same graphic context handle?
Have a great weekend! Sebastian
Am 13.03.2015 um 01:23 schrieb Stephan Eggermont:
On 13/03/15 05:32, Sebastian Heidbrink wrote:
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image?
One doesn't... There are several approaches that might help:
- wait a bit for spur 64 bit vm.
- do feature extraction and only store the relevant information in
your image. This is something we use all the time. Lots of tools are able to generate csv or json (or mse).
- split the data over multiple images, do the calculations for the
visualization in them and push the results to one image that only does the rendering. The nice thing is that it allows you to use all cores of your machine, the problem is how to divide your data and deal with border-crossing data. For some visualizations, you can even do the rendering in parallel.
Stephan _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Hi Sebastian!
I am doing my first steps in learning Moose and also Roassal. Is it possible to start Roassal Easel and Moose Panel from the world menu and add a model afterwards?
Yes
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image?
Well… it depends. It all depends on the granularity of your visualization.
Is there an example available how one could stream information on a Roassal view?
There is not such a thing so far. Which kind of data do you have? It all depends on the data, their structures. If you are simply interesting in visualizing some metrics, then this is easy. If you are interested in visualizing structure of a large amount of objects, then we need to be careful.
Did somebody already visualize a LAN network? What would be a good framework/project to do such analysis?
People in Argentina are using Roassal to monitor network packets for a TV digital project.
Cheers, Alexandre
Hi Alexandre!
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also not editable...?
Regarding the data, I just have a 300MB csv file that I imported into a data structure in Pharo. This blew up the image to 780MB. Doing calculations and visualization in this image is not doable. I'll need to span that off to a different image or do stuff step by step. I was just wondering what you guys do since you might have this problem on a daily base. I can already tell, that the image become very slow once a visualization gets too big. Does Roassal use double buffering for the moving and scaling of the visualization?
Do you know if the team in Argentina analyses the network from within Pharo?
Have a great weekend! Sebastian
Hi Sebastian!
I am doing my first steps in learning Moose and also Roassal. Is it possible to start Roassal Easel and Moose Panel from the world menu and add a model afterwards?
Yes
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image?
Well… it depends. It all depends on the granularity of your visualization.
Is there an example available how one could stream information on a Roassal view?
There is not such a thing so far. Which kind of data do you have? It all depends on the data, their structures. If you are simply interesting in visualizing some metrics, then this is easy. If you are interested in visualizing structure of a large amount of objects, then we need to be careful.
Did somebody already visualize a LAN network? What would be a good framework/project to do such analysis?
People in Argentina are using Roassal to monitor network packets for a TV digital project.
Cheers, Alexandre _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also not editable…?
Currently, CSV tables are not hooked into Moose. I have no idea if someone has worked on this or not. On my side, I have never hooked CSV table to Moose because I have never seen a need for this.
Consider the following script:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |tab ds b | tab := RTTabTable new input: 'http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/feed/v0.1/summary/2.5_month.csv' asUrl retrieveContents usingDelimiter: $,. tab removeFirstRow. tab replaceEmptyValuesWith: '0' inColumns: #(4 5). tab convertColumnsAsFloat: #(4 5).
b := RTGrapher new. ds := RTDataSet new. ds interaction popup. ds points: tab values. ds dotShape color: (Color blue alpha: 0.3). ds x: [ :row | row at: 4 ]. ds y: [ :row | row at: 5 ]. b add: ds.
b maxY: 8. b maxX: 700.
b axisX title: 'depth'. b axisY title: 'magnitude'. b build. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It visualizes seisms in plain Roassal, without the need to have it hooked into moose. This is a singular example. If I would deal with Seisms the all day long, then yes, I would surely hook it into moose (e.g., extending the Moose meta model, adding an importer in the Moose Panel, …).
At that stage, I have never seen the need.
Regarding the data, I just have a 300MB csv file that I imported into a data structure in Pharo. This blew up the image to 780MB.
Do you really need to keep all the cells at the same time? If this is the case, when you will probably need to work on the way to approach this case study. Several ways are possible: - You can use fuel to load and unload part of the CSV table on the disk. This should not be difficult at all. - You can keep in the image only the index of the CSV row, and access to it when you wish to get more data from it.
I am sure there are other way to deal with such a large file. It all depends on what the file contains.
Doing calculations and visualization in this image is not doable. I'll need to span that off to a different image or do stuff step by step.
Again, this is something that is not difficult to do. Which kind of calculation? You can either use OpenCL or span other images. Again, we have solution for this. For example, feel free to get in touch with Juan Pablo Sandoval, my PhD student. He has worked quite a lot on spanning new images.
I was just wondering what you guys do since you might have this problem on a daily base. I can already tell, that the image become very slow once a visualization gets too big. Does Roassal use double buffering for the moving and scaling of the visualization?
Roassal is indeed becoming slow when you reach around ~ 400 000 elements on screen. This is not really a surprise because there is no optimization. However, all is made to hook strategy for large amount of data.
Do you know if the team in Argentina analyses the network from within Pharo?
Yes, all within Pharo.
Alexandre
Have a great weekend! Sebastian
Hi Sebastian!
I am doing my first steps in learning Moose and also Roassal. Is it possible to start Roassal Easel and Moose Panel from the world menu and add a model afterwards?
Yes
How would one visualize data with the help of Roassal which underlying data is too big for the Pharo image?
Well… it depends. It all depends on the granularity of your visualization.
Is there an example available how one could stream information on a Roassal view?
There is not such a thing so far. Which kind of data do you have? It all depends on the data, their structures. If you are simply interesting in visualizing some metrics, then this is easy. If you are interested in visualizing structure of a large amount of objects, then we need to be careful.
Did somebody already visualize a LAN network? What would be a good framework/project to do such analysis?
People in Argentina are using Roassal to monitor network packets for a TV digital project.
Cheers, Alexandre _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Hi Alexandre,
well this works great but it is somehow still beyond me how to use the Roassal Easel Editor on its own.
I better ask: Why are Roassal Easel and Glamour Editor accessible via the WorldMenu if one can't really use them this way? Or am I missing something?
I saw some videos on live rendering during Roassal development. Is this just available for Roassal3d?
Sebastian
Am 13.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Alexandre Bergel:
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also not editable…?
Currently, CSV tables are not hooked into Moose. I have no idea if someone has worked on this or not. On my side, I have never hooked CSV table to Moose because I have never seen a need for this.
Consider the following script:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |tab ds b | tab := RTTabTable new input: 'http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/feed/v0.1/summary/2.5_month.csv' asUrl retrieveContents usingDelimiter: $,. tab removeFirstRow. tab replaceEmptyValuesWith: '0' inColumns: #(4 5). tab convertColumnsAsFloat: #(4 5).
b := RTGrapher new. ds := RTDataSet new. ds interaction popup. ds points: tab values. ds dotShape color: (Color blue alpha: 0.3). ds x: [ :row | row at: 4 ]. ds y: [ :row | row at: 5 ]. b add: ds.
b maxY: 8. b maxX: 700.
b axisX title: 'depth'. b axisY title: 'magnitude'. b build. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It visualizes seisms in plain Roassal, without the need to have it hooked into moose. This is a singular example. If I would deal with Seisms the all day long, then yes, I would surely hook it into moose (e.g., extending the Moose meta model, adding an importer in the Moose Panel, …).
At that stage, I have never seen the need.
Hi,
Because you can still try to work with basic examples. Anyway, these interfaces are mostly replaced by the Playground.
Cheers, Doru
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Sebastian Heidbrink sheidev@yahoo.de wrote:
Hi Alexandre,
well this works great but it is somehow still beyond me how to use the Roassal Easel Editor on its own.
I better ask: Why are Roassal Easel and Glamour Editor accessible via the WorldMenu if one can't really use them this way? Or am I missing something?
I saw some videos on live rendering during Roassal development. Is this just available for Roassal3d?
Sebastian
Am 13.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Alexandre Bergel:
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also
not editable…?
Currently, CSV tables are not hooked into Moose. I have no idea if someone has worked on this or not. On my side, I have never hooked CSV table to Moose because I have never seen a need for this.
Consider the following script:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |tab ds b | tab := RTTabTable new input: 'http://earthquake.usgs.gov/ earthquakes/feed/v0.1/summary/2.5_month.csv' asUrl retrieveContents usingDelimiter: $,. tab removeFirstRow. tab replaceEmptyValuesWith: '0' inColumns: #(4 5). tab convertColumnsAsFloat: #(4 5).
b := RTGrapher new. ds := RTDataSet new. ds interaction popup. ds points: tab values. ds dotShape color: (Color blue alpha: 0.3). ds x: [ :row | row at: 4 ]. ds y: [ :row | row at: 5 ]. b add: ds.
b maxY: 8. b maxX: 700.
b axisX title: 'depth'. b axisY title: 'magnitude'. b build. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It visualizes seisms in plain Roassal, without the need to have it hooked into moose. This is a singular example. If I would deal with Seisms the all day long, then yes, I would surely hook it into moose (e.g., extending the Moose meta model, adding an importer in the Moose Panel, …).
At that stage, I have never seen the need.
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Hi Sebastian,
The easel is obsolete. It does not make sense to still have it since the inspector largely supersede it. The inspector allows for live programming in a fantastic way. We will do some cleaning.
I am not sure to understand the problem you are facing. Have you tried the Roassal examples?
Regarding Roassal 3d, it is nearly on standby. We will continue to work on it, but currently we do not have the (human) resources.
Cheers Alexandre
Le 18 mars 2015 à 18:09, Sebastian Heidbrink sheidev@yahoo.de a écrit :
Hi Alexandre,
well this works great but it is somehow still beyond me how to use the Roassal Easel Editor on its own.
I better ask: Why are Roassal Easel and Glamour Editor accessible via the WorldMenu if one can't really use them this way? Or am I missing something?
I saw some videos on live rendering during Roassal development. Is this just available for Roassal3d?
Sebastian
Am 13.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Alexandre Bergel:
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also not editable…?
Currently, CSV tables are not hooked into Moose. I have no idea if someone has worked on this or not. On my side, I have never hooked CSV table to Moose because I have never seen a need for this.
Consider the following script:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |tab ds b | tab := RTTabTable new input: 'http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/feed/v0.1/summary/2.5_month.csv' asUrl retrieveContents usingDelimiter: $,. tab removeFirstRow. tab replaceEmptyValuesWith: '0' inColumns: #(4 5). tab convertColumnsAsFloat: #(4 5).
b := RTGrapher new. ds := RTDataSet new. ds interaction popup. ds points: tab values. ds dotShape color: (Color blue alpha: 0.3). ds x: [ :row | row at: 4 ]. ds y: [ :row | row at: 5 ]. b add: ds.
b maxY: 8. b maxX: 700.
b axisX title: 'depth'. b axisY title: 'magnitude'. b build. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It visualizes seisms in plain Roassal, without the need to have it hooked into moose. This is a singular example. If I would deal with Seisms the all day long, then yes, I would surely hook it into moose (e.g., extending the Moose meta model, adding an importer in the Moose Panel, …).
At that stage, I have never seen the need.
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Hi!
I found out that there is difference between "do it" and "do it and go". Later one indeed allows to have somekind of live programming.
I currently try to learn the Roassal framework without the need to look into Moose. I have a lot of CSV data available and it is best suited to try different representations.
My problem was that Once I open Roassal easel and would liek to draw charts based on data in the model, I had no idea on how to add the underlaying data to the Easel Editor.... but they way you described in your example works perfectly fine for me.
One should just maybe remove both editors from the world menu because it is not really useful... When you open the examples via Easel the left ouse button does not work, the right button opens the system browser and the back button ends up in a debugger. Without opening the examples there is not much to do...
But like I said, once one understands it it is perfectly fine to deal with the Playground.
I love it! Sebastian
Am 18.03.2015 um 14:25 schrieb Alexandre Bergel:
Hi Sebastian,
The easel is obsolete. It does not make sense to still have it since the inspector largely supersede it. The inspector allows for live programming in a fantastic way. We will do some cleaning.
I am not sure to understand the problem you are facing. Have you tried the Roassal examples?
Regarding Roassal 3d, it is nearly on standby. We will continue to work on it, but currently we do not have the (human) resources.
Cheers Alexandre
Le 18 mars 2015 à 18:09, Sebastian Heidbrink sheidev@yahoo.de a écrit :
Hi Alexandre,
well this works great but it is somehow still beyond me how to use the Roassal Easel Editor on its own.
I better ask: Why are Roassal Easel and Glamour Editor accessible via the WorldMenu if one can't really use them this way? Or am I missing something?
I saw some videos on live rendering during Roassal development. Is this just available for Roassal3d?
Sebastian
Am 13.03.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Alexandre Bergel:
Well, how can I add a model... there are now menus and the list is also not editable…?
Currently, CSV tables are not hooked into Moose. I have no idea if someone has worked on this or not. On my side, I have never hooked CSV table to Moose because I have never seen a need for this.
Consider the following script:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |tab ds b | tab := RTTabTable new input: 'http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/feed/v0.1/summary/2.5_month.csv' asUrl retrieveContents usingDelimiter: $,. tab removeFirstRow. tab replaceEmptyValuesWith: '0' inColumns: #(4 5). tab convertColumnsAsFloat: #(4 5).
b := RTGrapher new. ds := RTDataSet new. ds interaction popup. ds points: tab values. ds dotShape color: (Color blue alpha: 0.3). ds x: [ :row | row at: 4 ]. ds y: [ :row | row at: 5 ]. b add: ds.
b maxY: 8. b maxX: 700.
b axisX title: 'depth'. b axisY title: 'magnitude'. b build. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It visualizes seisms in plain Roassal, without the need to have it hooked into moose. This is a singular example. If I would deal with Seisms the all day long, then yes, I would surely hook it into moose (e.g., extending the Moose meta model, adding an importer in the Moose Panel, …).
At that stage, I have never seen the need.
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Thanks!
Let us know when you need help! Or also to share your result! We love experience report!
Cheers, Alexandre
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Sebastian Heidbrink -
Stephan Eggermont -
Tudor Girba