4 Nov
2010
4 Nov
'10
2:06 p.m.
no ooooooooooooo
Don't limit yourself show us your errors
your errors are coool
Glamour API should be better :)
Stef
On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin wrote:
Ouups :s
I'll try to open my both eyes before sending a mail now :)
Thank you
Ben
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4 Nov
4 Nov
2:43 p.m.
New subject: Glamour
Actually the Glamour API could be considered to be an internal DSL to
describe browsers. I assume that a forth and five iteration are
necessary to make it more user friendly. That is the reason why I did
not pursue Glamour this May. I thought instead of going for Glamour I
can just go through the effort of learning the ToolBuilder builder DSL
-- which in the end is not more difficult either.
A note aside: Maybe I push the idea of DSL too much here. The question
is: where do we talk about an API and where does the DSL idea start?
However --- though there are alot examples -- even more example will
help and I recently enjoyed trying out some of them in the
Moose-Glamour-Image.
--Hannes
On 11/4/10, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:
no ooooooooooooo
Don't limit yourself show us your errors
your errors are coool
Glamour API should be better :)
Stef
On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin wrote:
Ouups :s
I'll try to open my both eyes before sending a mail now :)
Thank you
Ben
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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4:50 p.m.
New subject: Glamour
Hi,
The Glamour API is intended to be an internal DSL. This is particularly useful for people
that do not know Smalltalk :)
What parts of the API is not user friendly for you?
Regarding the ToolBuilder vs Glamour issue, ToolBuilder is a User Interface framework,
while Glamour is a browser engine. To give you an idea, with the ToolBuilder, you place
buttons in a window. With Glamour, you define the data flow and the way data is presented
at a higher level.
Regarding examples, what kind of things are you interested in?
Cheers,
Doru
On 4 Nov 2010, at 14:43, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
Actually the Glamour API could be considered to be an
internal DSL to
describe browsers. I assume that a forth and five iteration are
necessary to make it more user friendly. That is the reason why I did
not pursue Glamour this May. I thought instead of going for Glamour I
can just go through the effort of learning the ToolBuilder builder DSL
-- which in the end is not more difficult either.
A note aside: Maybe I push the idea of DSL too much here. The question
is: where do we talk about an API and where does the DSL idea start?
However --- though there are alot examples -- even more example will
help and I recently enjoyed trying out some of them in the
Moose-Glamour-Image.
--Hannes
On 11/4/10, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:
--
www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not how it is, it is how we see it."
no ooooooooooooo
Don't limit yourself show us your errors
your errors are coool
Glamour API should be better :)
Stef
On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin wrote:
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev Ouups :s
I'll try to open my both eyes before sending a mail now :)
Thank you
Ben
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
5:50 p.m.
New subject: Glamour
Hello Tudor
On 11/4/10, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The Glamour API is intended to be an internal DSL. This is particularly
useful for people that do not know Smalltalk :)
What parts of the API is not user friendly for you?
At this moment I cannot say more that I would prefer simpler
statements. A more procedural builder oriented style. Not everything
in one big statement with nested blocks.
You have the graphical layout and the connections and I would just
like to describe that in a sequence of statements. Not in a hierarchy
of nested blocks. Less implicit semantics.
Regarding the ToolBuilder vs Glamour issue,
ToolBuilder is a User Interface
framework, while Glamour is a browser engine.
Sure. But as mentioned above for less complex cases it is the same.
The initial effort you have to put into learning the Glamour DSL is
still considerable.
To give you an idea, with the
ToolBuilder, you place buttons in a window.
Yes and no. You take an existing example as a template and change
method names. There are many examples.
E.g. a Two pane browser, a three pane browser, with and without text
window and so on...
With Glamour, you define the
data flow and the way data is presented at a higher
level.
For a browser the data flow is often pretty standard.
Regarding examples, what kind of things are you
interested in?
More simple examples which do something useful. Just to get the flavor
of the DSL.
A more complex one:
An example where I can navigate a network. I see all the neighbors of
a node (as a list and as graph). A node has a content window.
Navigation buttons forth and back.
Some real world examples outside the Smalltalk class hierarchy, for
example a WordNet browser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordNet
Cheers,
Doru
Thank you for answering and keeping up this interesting work.
--Hannes
On 4 Nov 2010, at 14:43, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
Actually the Glamour API could be considered to
be an internal DSL to
describe browsers. I assume that a forth and five iteration are
necessary to make it more user friendly. That is the reason why I did
not pursue Glamour this May. I thought instead of going for Glamour I
can just go through the effort of learning the ToolBuilder builder DSL
-- which in the end is not more difficult either.
A note aside: Maybe I push the idea of DSL too much here. The question
is: where do we talk about an API and where does the DSL idea start?
However --- though there are alot examples -- even more example will
help and I recently enjoyed trying out some of them in the
Moose-Glamour-Image.
--Hannes
On 11/4/10, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:
--
www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not how it is, it is how we see it."
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
no ooooooooooooo
Don't limit yourself show us your errors
your errors are coool
Glamour API should be better :)
Stef
On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin wrote:
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev Ouups :s
I'll try to open my both eyes before sending a mail now :)
Thank you
Ben
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
6 Nov
6 Nov
1:43 a.m.
New subject: Glamour
Hi,
On 4 Nov 2010, at 17:50, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
For trivial cases, you should not need much. I had several programmers that do not know
Smalltalk that managed to build some simple browsers after half a day of training
(including learning Smalltalk syntax, tools and so on).
There are several examples of browsing more complex pieces of information in Moose. For
example, by doing:
- MooseMetaBrowser open
- MoosePanel open
Hello Tudor
On 11/4/10, Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com> wrote:
:). I do not understand what you mean by less implicit semantics. The construction of the
Glamour model is pretty straightforward. The blocks are nothing but a strategy to avoid
subclassing when in prototyping mode.
Hi,
The Glamour API is intended to be an internal DSL. This is particularly
useful for people that do not know Smalltalk :)
What parts of the API is not user friendly for you?
At this moment I cannot say more that I would prefer simpler
statements. A more procedural builder oriented style. Not everything
in one big statement with nested blocks.
You have the graphical layout and the connections and I would just
like to describe that in a sequence of statements. Not in a hierarchy
of nested blocks. Less implicit semantics. Regarding the
ToolBuilder vs Glamour issue, ToolBuilder is a User Interface
framework, while Glamour is a browser engine.
Sure. But as mentioned above for less complex cases it is the same.
The initial effort you have to put into learning the Glamour DSL is
still considerable. To give you an idea, with the
:)
ToolBuilder, you place buttons in a window.
Yes and no. You take an existing example as a template and change
method names. There are many examples. E.g. a Two pane browser, a three pane browser, with
and without text
window and so on...
With Glamour, you define the
I do not subscribe to this statement :). There are abstract patterns, but other than that,
we typically need to treat each data structure and each use case in a different way.
The problem with browsers is that even when they initially start small, they tend to grow
over time. And when updating and data propagation is not approached systematically, they
soon become difficult to manage. What Glamour does is to decouple the data flow from the
presentation strategy. One of the things that came out of this work was the approach to
think of a browser primarily as a data flow, and only secondarily as a way to present the
data. Perhaps from what exists now, it is still not that obvious what the approach
brings, but I am confident that it will make a significant different in the
not-so-long-run.
data flow and the way data is presented at a
higher level.
For a browser the data flow is often pretty standard. Regarding
examples, what kind of things are you interested in?
More simple examples which do something useful. Just to get the flavor
of the DSL.
A more complex one:
An example where I can navigate a network. I see all the neighbors of
a node (as a list and as graph). A node has a content window.
Navigation buttons forth and back.
Some real world examples outside the Smalltalk class hierarchy, for
example a WordNet browser http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordNet Thank you for answering and keeping up this
interesting work.
Thanks for asking. Actually, if you have more punctual questions about Glamour, we would
welcome more questions.
Cheers,
Doru
--Hannes
--
www.tudorgirba.com
"We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
On 4 Nov 2010, at 14:43, Hannes Hirzel wrote:
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev Actually the Glamour API could be considered to
be an internal DSL to
describe browsers. I assume that a forth and five iteration are
necessary to make it more user friendly. That is the reason why I did
not pursue Glamour this May. I thought instead of going for Glamour I
can just go through the effort of learning the ToolBuilder builder DSL
-- which in the end is not more difficult either.
A note aside: Maybe I push the idea of DSL too much here. The question
is: where do we talk about an API and where does the DSL idea start?
However --- though there are alot examples -- even more example will
help and I recently enjoyed trying out some of them in the
Moose-Glamour-Image.
--Hannes
On 11/4/10, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote:
--
www.tudorgirba.com
"It's not how it is, it is how we see it."
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
no ooooooooooooo
Don't limit yourself show us your errors
your errors are coool
Glamour API should be better :)
Stef
On Nov 4, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Benjamin wrote:
> Ouups :s
>
>
> I'll try to open my both eyes before sending a mail now :)
>
>
> Thank you
>
> Ben
> _______________________________________________
> Moose-dev mailing list
> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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5205
days inactive
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days old
4 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
-
Hannes Hirzel -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Tudor Girba