Hi,
On Apr 18, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Doru,
Le 18/04/2018 à 06:45, Tudor Girba a écrit :
Hi, Sorry for the late reply. I missed this email. BlInfiniteElement’s comment says: "I'm an element which is supposed to contain huge amount of children and layout only those of them that are visible inside my viewport. I work with DataSources to fetch data from and can present data within different Infinite Layouts.”
Ok so this is a generalisation of the fasttable approach.
I wanted to know if it could handle data sources where elements size is variable and unknown unless you render the element.
Yes, it does: https://twitter.com/feenkcom/status/984744251920658432
It is used in both lists and in the text editor.
Obvious, isn't it. A text is a list of lines...
I am not sure which variable you refer to by "currently processing a request”. Can you clarify?
Can't find it, but must have been triggered when looking at variables like layoutRequestEaten. Yes, it seems like it.
Interesting: found the cache used in the BLInfiniteElement (BlRecycler?). Also found a pool (BlInfinitePool) ? Couldn't find what it could be a pool of... Strange, you add things in the pool when you release them (so you fill the pool by releasing objects?). Looks like a LIFO stack to me.
I am not quite sure what you mean by filling the pool by releasing objects. Can you explain? Also, I let Alex describe the details :)
Doru
Regards,
Thierry
Cheers, Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
The only way one can review it is to reverse engineer the whole code base then. How much did you say? 2 peoples, how many months?
A few questions then, after a cursory glance:
- In what way an infinite BlElement is infinite?
- Why does an infinite BlElement has what seems to be a sort of
"currently processing a request" instance variable?
Regards,
Thierry
2018-04-09 14:08 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com:
Hi,
We are doing that. We rewrote the system multiple times precisely because of these reasons. We could certainly do better, but I think that any meaningful conversation must happen around code, and we’d be happy to learn where we did not exploit all abstractions we could. Actually, I would be happy to even have a conversation about issues, even if the solution is not given. It can start by simply being pointed to code that does not sound right.
Cheers, Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
2018-04-09 12:00 GMT+02:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu:
> On 9 Apr 2018, at 11:36, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: > > > > 2018-04-09 11:23 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel alex.syrel@gmail.com: > Hi, > > For the record, View class, a root class of all visual elements in Android 27 is 26'488 lines of code. It didn't hover prevent it from being used on more than 2 billion devices :) > > Remind me, please: what is the budget of Google for the ongoing maintenance of Android? > > The core of Bloc is just 14k lines of code. It would be nice to know how many lines of code should be considered too much, 5k, 7.43k or 10k. > > For a non-rendering core? 2k.
I think that having a time/space efficient high quality well documented code base is definitively a goal, they are probably not there yet.
Being the smallest out there is probably not a goal, nor is that a particularly interesting one, IMHO.
Small means a real effort has been to:
not reimplement already available mechanisms,
build the most effective abstractions,
do not factor in unneeded customizations points,
I value highly someone that try to reach thoses.
Thierry
> Thierry > > > Cheers, > Alex > > On 9 April 2018 at 11:12, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: > > > 2018-04-09 11:02 GMT+02:00 Serge Stinckwich serge.stinckwich@gmail.com: > > > On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: > 2018-04-09 9:14 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com: >> Hi, >> >> I think it might be more interesting to start the review from the usage of it, not from the internals. > > Well, from the usage of it, I've seen nothing that doesn't fit into > the yagt. I've seen that field evolve and try clever things, really > different things, and Bloc does not look like one of thoses. > >> Indeed, Bloc is primarily an engineering effort. But, there are a couple of things that make it rather different from other solutions. For example: >> - Only one rendering tree in all cases. This works also for graph visualizations that work with any element without imposing knowledge about edges in the base system. We think this is quite important, and especially when combined with a performant rendering, it can open new doors for UI design. > > Look, from the point of view of the man of the art, it doesn't seems > like a breakthrough. > > > Do we need a breakthrought for UI ? > No ! > We need something that works that's it, stable software with good documentation and tests. > After that people can build the next-UI if they want, but this is build on solid foundations. > > Agreed. And this is where it is critical. > > I used Morphic since Self 3.0, beginning of my PhD (1994, I think), followed it to the beginning of Squeak (1998). When I came back to Pharo in 2011, I was horrified by what it has became: a monster of thousands over thousands of buggy lines. > > And now I see a replacement, that, before going into production, is already at 45k lines? And with a planned, huge dependency on the GUI lib of another project? > > Do you imagine how it will be, 10 years down the line? > > Do you think it will be the stable foundation you're looking for? > > > > Compared to other smalltalk-based solutions, yes, it may be seen as an > improvement. > > I think you underestimate how advanced that field has been / is, and > how far behind the state of the art are industrial solutions. > > There is only one development in the Smalltalk space in GUI that is > worthy of interest for me: the anti-aliasing of Juan Vuletich. It > would have so much impact overall (remove all dependencies on external > libs, remove the need to do font anti-aliasing, scrap thousands of > lines of slow and ugly Smalltalk code, simplify the FreeType > infrastructure, remove MBs of external librairies, ensure long-term > porting ease / code evolution). > > M > aybe this was a breakthrought, but how many users ? > > Very few users. Juan has not yet implemented it. > > Regards, > > Thierry > > > > Regards, > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) > "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"Don't give to get. Just give."
Le 19/04/2018 à 06:31, Tudor Girba a écrit :
Hi,
On Apr 18, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Doru,
Le 18/04/2018 à 06:45, Tudor Girba a écrit :
Hi, Sorry for the late reply. I missed this email. BlInfiniteElement’s comment says: "I'm an element which is supposed to contain huge amount of children and layout only those of them that are visible inside my viewport. I work with DataSources to fetch data from and can present data within different Infinite Layouts.”
Ok so this is a generalisation of the fasttable approach.
I wanted to know if it could handle data sources where elements size is variable and unknown unless you render the element.
Yes, it does: https://twitter.com/feenkcom/status/984744251920658432
This shows just it can handle varying height. Easy.
But that doesn't answer the key question: does it need to know their height (of all elements) or not ? That one is a bit harder.
Thierry
It is used in both lists and in the text editor.
Obvious, isn't it. A text is a list of lines...
I am not sure which variable you refer to by "currently processing a request”. Can you clarify?
Can't find it, but must have been triggered when looking at variables like layoutRequestEaten. Yes, it seems like it.
Interesting: found the cache used in the BLInfiniteElement (BlRecycler?). Also found a pool (BlInfinitePool) ? Couldn't find what it could be a pool of... Strange, you add things in the pool when you release them (so you fill the pool by releasing objects?). Looks like a LIFO stack to me.
I am not quite sure what you mean by filling the pool by releasing objects. Can you explain? Also, I let Alex describe the details :)
Doru
Regards,
Thierry
Cheers, Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
The only way one can review it is to reverse engineer the whole code base then. How much did you say? 2 peoples, how many months?
A few questions then, after a cursory glance:
- In what way an infinite BlElement is infinite?
- Why does an infinite BlElement has what seems to be a sort of
"currently processing a request" instance variable?
Regards,
Thierry
2018-04-09 14:08 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com:
Hi,
We are doing that. We rewrote the system multiple times precisely because of these reasons. We could certainly do better, but I think that any meaningful conversation must happen around code, and we’d be happy to learn where we did not exploit all abstractions we could. Actually, I would be happy to even have a conversation about issues, even if the solution is not given. It can start by simply being pointed to code that does not sound right.
Cheers, Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
2018-04-09 12:00 GMT+02:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu: > > >> On 9 Apr 2018, at 11:36, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> 2018-04-09 11:23 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel alex.syrel@gmail.com: >> Hi, >> >> For the record, View class, a root class of all visual elements in Android 27 is 26'488 lines of code. It didn't hover prevent it from being used on more than 2 billion devices :) >> >> Remind me, please: what is the budget of Google for the ongoing maintenance of Android? >> >> The core of Bloc is just 14k lines of code. It would be nice to know how many lines of code should be considered too much, 5k, 7.43k or 10k. >> >> For a non-rendering core? 2k. > > I think that having a time/space efficient high quality well documented code base is definitively a goal, they are probably not there yet. > > Being the smallest out there is probably not a goal, nor is that a particularly interesting one, IMHO.
Small means a real effort has been to:
not reimplement already available mechanisms,
build the most effective abstractions,
do not factor in unneeded customizations points,
I value highly someone that try to reach thoses.
Thierry
>> Thierry >> >> >> Cheers, >> Alex >> >> On 9 April 2018 at 11:12, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> 2018-04-09 11:02 GMT+02:00 Serge Stinckwich serge.stinckwich@gmail.com: >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote: >> 2018-04-09 9:14 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I think it might be more interesting to start the review from the usage of it, not from the internals. >> >> Well, from the usage of it, I've seen nothing that doesn't fit into >> the yagt. I've seen that field evolve and try clever things, really >> different things, and Bloc does not look like one of thoses. >> >>> Indeed, Bloc is primarily an engineering effort. But, there are a couple of things that make it rather different from other solutions. For example: >>> - Only one rendering tree in all cases. This works also for graph visualizations that work with any element without imposing knowledge about edges in the base system. We think this is quite important, and especially when combined with a performant rendering, it can open new doors for UI design. >> >> Look, from the point of view of the man of the art, it doesn't seems >> like a breakthrough. >> >> >> Do we need a breakthrought for UI ? >> No ! >> We need something that works that's it, stable software with good documentation and tests. >> After that people can build the next-UI if they want, but this is build on solid foundations. >> >> Agreed. And this is where it is critical. >> >> I used Morphic since Self 3.0, beginning of my PhD (1994, I think), followed it to the beginning of Squeak (1998). When I came back to Pharo in 2011, I was horrified by what it has became: a monster of thousands over thousands of buggy lines. >> >> And now I see a replacement, that, before going into production, is already at 45k lines? And with a planned, huge dependency on the GUI lib of another project? >> >> Do you imagine how it will be, 10 years down the line? >> >> Do you think it will be the stable foundation you're looking for? >> >> >> >> Compared to other smalltalk-based solutions, yes, it may be seen as an >> improvement. >> >> I think you underestimate how advanced that field has been / is, and >> how far behind the state of the art are industrial solutions. >> >> There is only one development in the Smalltalk space in GUI that is >> worthy of interest for me: the anti-aliasing of Juan Vuletich. It >> would have so much impact overall (remove all dependencies on external >> libs, remove the need to do font anti-aliasing, scrap thousands of >> lines of slow and ugly Smalltalk code, simplify the FreeType >> infrastructure, remove MBs of external librairies, ensure long-term >> porting ease / code evolution). >> >> M >> aybe this was a breakthrought, but how many users ? >> >> Very few users. Juan has not yet implemented it. >> >> Regards, >> >> Thierry >> >> >> >> Regards, >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) >> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"Don't give to get. Just give."
But that doesn't answer the key question: does it need to know their height (of all elements) or not ? That one is a bit harder.
The list measures and lays out only visible elements, which means that at any time it only knows the width / height of some small subset of items.
Cheers, Alex
On 19 April 2018 at 06:38, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
Le 19/04/2018 à 06:31, Tudor Girba a écrit :
Hi,
On Apr 18, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Doru,
Le 18/04/2018 à 06:45, Tudor Girba a écrit :
Hi, Sorry for the late reply. I missed this email. BlInfiniteElement’s comment says: "I'm an element which is supposed to contain huge amount of children and layout only those of them that are visible inside my viewport. I work with DataSources to fetch data from and can present data within different Infinite Layouts.”
Ok so this is a generalisation of the fasttable approach.
I wanted to know if it could handle data sources where elements size is variable and unknown unless you render the element.
Yes, it does: https://twitter.com/feenkcom/status/984744251920658432
This shows just it can handle varying height. Easy.
But that doesn't answer the key question: does it need to know their height (of all elements) or not ? That one is a bit harder.
Thierry
It is used in both lists and in the text editor.
Obvious, isn't it. A text is a list of lines...
I am not sure which variable you refer to by "currently processing a
request”. Can you clarify?
Can't find it, but must have been triggered when looking at variables like layoutRequestEaten. Yes, it seems like it.
Interesting: found the cache used in the BLInfiniteElement (BlRecycler?). Also found a pool (BlInfinitePool) ? Couldn't find what it could be a pool of... Strange, you add things in the pool when you release them (so you fill the pool by releasing objects?). Looks like a LIFO stack to me.
I am not quite sure what you mean by filling the pool by releasing objects. Can you explain? Also, I let Alex describe the details :)
Doru
Regards,
Thierry
Cheers,
Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com wrote:
The only way one can review it is to reverse engineer the whole code base then. How much did you say? 2 peoples, how many months?
A few questions then, after a cursory glance:
- In what way an infinite BlElement is infinite?
- Why does an infinite BlElement has what seems to be a sort of
"currently processing a request" instance variable?
Regards,
Thierry
2018-04-09 14:08 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com:
Hi,
We are doing that. We rewrote the system multiple times precisely because of these reasons. We could certainly do better, but I think that any meaningful conversation must happen around code, and we’d be happy to learn where we did not exploit all abstractions we could. Actually, I would be happy to even have a conversation about issues, even if the solution is not given. It can start by simply being pointed to code that does not sound right.
Cheers, Doru
On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote: > > 2018-04-09 12:00 GMT+02:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe sven@stfx.eu: > >> >> >> On 9 Apr 2018, at 11:36, Thierry Goubier thierry.goubier@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> 2018-04-09 11:23 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel alex.syrel@gmail.com: >>> Hi, >>> >>> For the record, View class, a root class of all visual elements in >>> Android 27 is 26'488 lines of code. It didn't hover prevent it from being >>> used on more than 2 billion devices :) >>> >>> Remind me, please: what is the budget of Google for the ongoing >>> maintenance of Android? >>> >>> The core of Bloc is just 14k lines of code. It would be nice to >>> know how many lines of code should be considered too much, 5k, 7.43k or 10k. >>> >>> For a non-rendering core? 2k. >>> >> >> I think that having a time/space efficient high quality well >> documented code base is definitively a goal, they are probably not there >> yet. >> >> Being the smallest out there is probably not a goal, nor is that a >> particularly interesting one, IMHO. >> > > Small means a real effort has been to: > > - not reimplement already available mechanisms, > > - build the most effective abstractions, > > - do not factor in unneeded customizations points, > > I value highly someone that try to reach thoses. > > Thierry > > Thierry >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alex >>> >>> On 9 April 2018 at 11:12, Thierry Goubier < >>> thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> 2018-04-09 11:02 GMT+02:00 Serge Stinckwich < >>> serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>: >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Thierry Goubier < >>> thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote: >>> 2018-04-09 9:14 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I think it might be more interesting to start the review from the >>>> usage of it, not from the internals. >>>> >>> >>> Well, from the usage of it, I've seen nothing that doesn't fit into >>> the yagt. I've seen that field evolve and try clever things, really >>> different things, and Bloc does not look like one of thoses. >>> >>> Indeed, Bloc is primarily an engineering effort. But, there are a >>>> couple of things that make it rather different from other solutions. For >>>> example: >>>> - Only one rendering tree in all cases. This works also for graph >>>> visualizations that work with any element without imposing knowledge about >>>> edges in the base system. We think this is quite important, and especially >>>> when combined with a performant rendering, it can open new doors for UI >>>> design. >>>> >>> >>> Look, from the point of view of the man of the art, it doesn't >>> seems >>> like a breakthrough. >>> >>> >>> Do we need a breakthrought for UI ? >>> No ! >>> We need something that works that's it, stable software with good >>> documentation and tests. >>> After that people can build the next-UI if they want, but this is >>> build on solid foundations. >>> >>> Agreed. And this is where it is critical. >>> >>> I used Morphic since Self 3.0, beginning of my PhD (1994, I >>> think), followed it to the beginning of Squeak (1998). When I came back to >>> Pharo in 2011, I was horrified by what it has became: a monster of >>> thousands over thousands of buggy lines. >>> >>> And now I see a replacement, that, before going into production, >>> is already at 45k lines? And with a planned, huge dependency on the GUI lib >>> of another project? >>> >>> Do you imagine how it will be, 10 years down the line? >>> >>> Do you think it will be the stable foundation you're looking for? >>> >>> >>> >>> Compared to other smalltalk-based solutions, yes, it may be seen >>> as an >>> improvement. >>> >>> I think you underestimate how advanced that field has been / is, >>> and >>> how far behind the state of the art are industrial solutions. >>> >>> There is only one development in the Smalltalk space in GUI that is >>> worthy of interest for me: the anti-aliasing of Juan Vuletich. It >>> would have so much impact overall (remove all dependencies on >>> external >>> libs, remove the need to do font anti-aliasing, scrap thousands of >>> lines of slow and ugly Smalltalk code, simplify the FreeType >>> infrastructure, remove MBs of external librairies, ensure long-term >>> porting ease / code evolution). >>> >>> M >>> aybe this was a breakthrought, but how many users ? >>> >>> Very few users. Juan has not yet implemented it. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> -- >>> Serge Stinckwich >>> UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) >>> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only >>> incidentally for machines to execute." >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >>> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >>> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >>> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >>> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch >> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev >
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go."
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com
"Don't give to get. Just give."
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
Le 19/04/2018 à 14:31, Aliaksei Syrel a écrit :
But that doesn't answer the key question: does it need to know their height (of all elements) or not ? That one is a bit harder.The list measures and lays out only visible elements, which means that at any time it only knows the width / height of some small subset of items.
Could you write an example where the height of each element is decided at random each time it is rendered, for, say, about 10000 elements? I have already one like that, and would be interested to see how you write that (and trace it to see how it behaves).
Mind you, I think this would be the sort of examples you need to show, because then you really have a quantitative difference.
Regards,
Thierry
Cheers, Alex
On 19 April 2018 at 06:38, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 19/04/2018 à 06:31, Tudor Girba a écrit : Hi, On Apr 18, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Doru, Le 18/04/2018 à 06:45, Tudor Girba a écrit : Hi, Sorry for the late reply. I missed this email. BlInfiniteElement’s comment says: "I'm an element which is supposed to contain huge amount of children and layout only those of them that are visible inside my viewport. I work with DataSources to fetch data from and can present data within different Infinite Layouts.” Ok so this is a generalisation of the fasttable approach. I wanted to know if it could handle data sources where elements size is variable and unknown unless you render the element. Yes, it does: https://twitter.com/feenkcom/status/984744251920658432 <https://twitter.com/feenkcom/status/984744251920658432> This shows just it can handle varying height. Easy. But that doesn't answer the key question: does it need to know their height (of all elements) or not ? That one is a bit harder. Thierry It is used in both lists and in the text editor. Obvious, isn't it. A text is a list of lines... I am not sure which variable you refer to by "currently processing a request”. Can you clarify? Can't find it, but must have been triggered when looking at variables like layoutRequestEaten. Yes, it seems like it. Interesting: found the cache used in the BLInfiniteElement (BlRecycler?). Also found a pool (BlInfinitePool) ? Couldn't find what it could be a pool of... Strange, you add things in the pool when you release them (so you fill the pool by releasing objects?). Looks like a LIFO stack to me. I am not quite sure what you mean by filling the pool by releasing objects. Can you explain? Also, I let Alex describe the details :) Doru Regards, Thierry Cheers, Doru On Apr 9, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: The only way one can review it is to reverse engineer the whole code base then. How much did you say? 2 peoples, how many months? A few questions then, after a cursory glance: - In what way an infinite BlElement is infinite? - Why does an infinite BlElement has what seems to be a sort of "currently processing a request" instance variable? Regards, Thierry 2018-04-09 14:08 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>: Hi, We are doing that. We rewrote the system multiple times precisely because of these reasons. We could certainly do better, but I think that any meaningful conversation must happen around code, and we’d be happy to learn where we did not exploit all abstractions we could. Actually, I would be happy to even have a conversation about issues, even if the solution is not given. It can start by simply being pointed to code that does not sound right. Cheers, Doru On Apr 9, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: 2018-04-09 12:00 GMT+02:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>>: On 9 Apr 2018, at 11:36, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: 2018-04-09 11:23 GMT+02:00 Aliaksei Syrel <alex.syrel@gmail.com <mailto:alex.syrel@gmail.com>>: Hi, For the record, View class, a root class of all visual elements in Android 27 is 26'488 lines of code. It didn't hover prevent it from being used on more than 2 billion devices :) Remind me, please: what is the budget of Google for the ongoing maintenance of Android? The core of Bloc is just 14k lines of code. It would be nice to know how many lines of code should be considered too much, 5k, 7.43k or 10k. For a non-rendering core? 2k. I think that having a time/space efficient high quality well documented code base is definitively a goal, they are probably not there yet. Being the smallest out there is probably not a goal, nor is that a particularly interesting one, IMHO. Small means a real effort has been to: - not reimplement already available mechanisms, - build the most effective abstractions, - do not factor in unneeded customizations points, I value highly someone that try to reach thoses. Thierry Thierry Cheers, Alex On 9 April 2018 at 11:12, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: 2018-04-09 11:02 GMT+02:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com <mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>>: On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: 2018-04-09 9:14 GMT+02:00 Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>>: Hi, I think it might be more interesting to start the review from the usage of it, not from the internals. Well, from the usage of it, I've seen nothing that doesn't fit into the yagt. I've seen that field evolve and try clever things, really different things, and Bloc does not look like one of thoses. Indeed, Bloc is primarily an engineering effort. But, there are a couple of things that make it rather different from other solutions. For example: - Only one rendering tree in all cases. This works also for graph visualizations that work with any element without imposing knowledge about edges in the base system. We think this is quite important, and especially when combined with a performant rendering, it can open new doors for UI design. Look, from the point of view of the man of the art, it doesn't seems like a breakthrough. Do we need a breakthrought for UI ? No ! We need something that works that's it, stable software with good documentation and tests. After that people can build the next-UI if they want, but this is build on solid foundations. Agreed. And this is where it is critical. I used Morphic since Self 3.0, beginning of my PhD (1994, I think), followed it to the beginning of Squeak (1998). When I came back to Pharo in 2011, I was horrified by what it has became: a monster of thousands over thousands of buggy lines. And now I see a replacement, that, before going into production, is already at 45k lines? And with a planned, huge dependency on the GUI lib of another project? Do you imagine how it will be, 10 years down the line? Do you think it will be the stable foundation you're looking for? Compared to other smalltalk-based solutions, yes, it may be seen as an improvement. I think you underestimate how advanced that field has been / is, and how far behind the state of the art are industrial solutions. There is only one development in the Smalltalk space in GUI that is worthy of interest for me: the anti-aliasing of Juan Vuletich. It would have so much impact overall (remove all dependencies on external libs, remove the need to do font anti-aliasing, scrap thousands of lines of slow and ugly Smalltalk code, simplify the FreeType infrastructure, remove MBs of external librairies, ensure long-term porting ease / code evolution). M aybe this was a breakthrought, but how many users ? Very few users. Juan has not yet implemented it. Regards, Thierry Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (SU/IRD/UY1) "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ <http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> -- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com> "We cannot reach the flow of things unless we let go." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> -- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com> "Things happen when they happen, not when you talk about them happening." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev> -- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com> www.feenk.com <http://www.feenk.com> "Don't give to get. Just give." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch> https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev <https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev>
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@list.inf.unibe.ch https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev
-
Aliaksei Syrel -
Thierry Goubier -
Tudor Girba