To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef
On 26 Jun 2014, at 09:31, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground
Maybe it was easier to take unmodified image and install things that you need rather than uninstalling broken stuff? Just my 2 cents :)
Uko
Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
On 26/6/14 09:36, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014, at 09:31, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground
Maybe it was easier to take unmodified image and install things that you need rather than uninstalling broken stuff? Just my 2 cents :)
yes I will do that and probably set up my own Moose distribution. I guess that this is what you did so many be we should share knowledge my problem is that I want to debug snapshotCello on moose.
Stef
Uko
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On 26 Jun 2014, at 09:42, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
On 26/6/14 09:36, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014, at 09:31, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground
Maybe it was easier to take unmodified image and install things that you need rather than uninstalling broken stuff? Just my 2 cents :)
yes I will do that and probably set up my own Moose distribution. I guess that this is what you did so many be we should share knowledge my problem is that I want to debug snapshotCello on moose.
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV ....
Stef On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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Hi Stef,
Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET.
But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV ....
Stef
On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET.
But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.
This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand.
You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click.
You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too.
Stef
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV .... Stef On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself. For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration. Uko Sent from my iPhone On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it. StefThe thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo. UkoStefUko> Stef > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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Hi Stef,
Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to.
We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing.
But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :).
Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage?
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET.
But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.
This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand.
You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click.
You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too.
Stef
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV ....
Stef
On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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Ok so I'm sad because you miss my point, so reread my mail. Why should these tools be loaded? Why can't they be loaded on demand?
Hi Stef,
Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to.
We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing.
But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :).
Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage?
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET. But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand. You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click. You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too. StefCheers, Doru On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV .... Stef On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself. For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration. Uko Sent from my iPhone On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it. StefThe thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo. UkoStef> > Uko > >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >
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I've always viewed Moose as closer to an end-user tool. I want to open the tool up and be able to start using it, not digging around trying to remember what arcane names I need to load to get the parts I need to do analysis. (Is it Arki? EyeSee? GraphET? GraphET3? which XML?) Bah, jsut ahve the right tools loaded so I, an end user, can start using them.
As a non-end-user, isn't that what Pharo gives you - the starting point that you can just load the parts of Moose that you want into your image? Make the stuff loadable from there that you want.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 8:32 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Ok so I'm sad because you miss my point, so reread my mail. Why should these tools be loaded? Why can't they be loaded on demand?
Hi Stef,
Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to.
We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing.
But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :).
Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage?
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET.
But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.
This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand.
You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click.
You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too.
Stef
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV ....
Stef
On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
Stef
Uko
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Moose has a VERY steep learning curve. And I cannot call it end-user tool. I can call it high-skilled-shaman-tool.
Uko
On 26 Jun 2014, at 17:47, Chris Cunningham cunningham.cb@gmail.com wrote:
I've always viewed Moose as closer to an end-user tool. I want to open the tool up and be able to start using it, not digging around trying to remember what arcane names I need to load to get the parts I need to do analysis. (Is it Arki? EyeSee? GraphET? GraphET3? which XML?) Bah, jsut ahve the right tools loaded so I, an end user, can start using them.
As a non-end-user, isn't that what Pharo gives you - the starting point that you can just load the parts of Moose that you want into your image? Make the stuff loadable from there that you want.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 8:32 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote: Ok so I'm sad because you miss my point, so reread my mail. Why should these tools be loaded? Why can't they be loaded on demand?
Hi Stef,
Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to.
We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing.
But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :).
Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage?
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET.
But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.
This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand.
You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click.
You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too.
Stef
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote: For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV ....
Stef
On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip
The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself.
For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration.
Uko
Sent from my iPhone
On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri
where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it.
Stef
The thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo.
Uko
> > Stef >> >> Uko >> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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On 26/6/14 17:52, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
Moose has a VERY steep learning curve. And I cannot call it end-user tool. I can call it high-skilled-shaman-tool.
:) Moose is the warp synthetizer of doru :)
Stef
Uko
On 26 Jun 2014, at 17:47, Chris Cunningham <cunningham.cb@gmail.com mailto:cunningham.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
I've always viewed Moose as closer to an end-user tool. I want to open the tool up and be able to start using it, not digging around trying to remember what arcane names I need to load to get the parts I need to do analysis. (Is it Arki? EyeSee? GraphET? GraphET3? which XML?) Bah, jsut ahve the right tools loaded so I, an end user, can start using them.
As a non-end-user, isn't that what Pharo gives you - the starting point that you can just load the parts of Moose that you want into your image? Make the stuff loadable from there that you want.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 8:32 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Ok so I'm sad because you miss my point, so reread my mail. Why should these tools be loaded? Why can't they be loaded on demand?Hi Stef, Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to. We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing. But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :). Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage? Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET. But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand. You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click. You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too. StefCheers, Doru On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV .... Stef On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself. For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration. Uko Sent from my iPhone On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it. Stef> > The thing is that after loading all packages current > build job runs magical script that sets up theme, > tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived > before this script is being run. So then I can set > up the inspector and so on by myself, while > everything other remains like in vanilla pharo. > > Uko > > >> >> Stef >>> >>> Uko >>> >>>> Stef >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >>>> mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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I've always viewed Moose as closer to an end-user tool. I want to open the tool up and be able to start using it, not digging around trying to remember what arcane names I need to load to get the parts I need to do analysis. (Is it Arki? EyeSee? GraphET? GraphET3? which XML?) Bah, jsut ahve the right tools loaded so I, an end user, can start using them.
I can understand but this is not wise. Now if your configuration is loaded in Pharo the fly by help of nautilus shows you a description of the configuration. So that people can learn. Now we have to pay the price and the price is a bloated image. I do not think that you really realize the complexity of the system and adding more is just insane. Check my other mail with the dependency of the configurations that were working.
Stef
As a non-end-user, isn't that what Pharo gives you - the starting point that you can just load the parts of Moose that you want into your image? Make the stuff loadable from there that you want.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 8:32 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Ok so I'm sad because you miss my point, so reread my mail. Why should these tools be loaded? Why can't they be loaded on demand?Hi Stef, Of course the image is a cache, but I do not understand what you are referring to. We do not develop Moose by copying images around. We load lots of configurations. I agree that we should refactor some of them, and we should remove some of them. Hismo is indeed a good candidate for removing. But, still the goal of a distribution is to pack together code that brings enough value for a certain audience. And, XML is so pervasive, at least in the projects I was exposed to, that it does not make much sense to claim easy data analysis without supporting it out of the box. Btw, JSON starts to be a candidate as well :). Btw, from a pragmatic point of view, why do you necessarily need to ignoreImage? Cheers, Doru On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:50 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Moose is right now bloated because it has two versions of Roassal and two of Graph-ET. But, XML is a prerequisite in the business of analysis. I am still to encounter a serious analysis project that did not involve some XML. Actually, at this point, as Moose gets to be used in all sorts of non-code related projects, I feel more that FAMIX makes the system bloated.This is plain wrong. Load a package when you need it. I would unload Hismo, FAMIX-C, and keep the minimum and not a kitchen sink. Else you should load also JSON and many others. Even the moose Algos should be loaded on demand. You are not lucid on the problem. You are like these old smalltalkers that do not understand anything to modularity. We can have a small moose image where we test that a given list of EXTERNAL packages loads correctly and run well the tests but are not shipped by default but loadable in one click. You confuse the system and its cache. Repeat after me: an image is a cache. Why there is not a metacello browser just for loading moose certified packages? Because this is the way to go for Pharo and also for Moose. Moose is becoming untractable. I spent the day trying to find why we cannot snapshot a version of each package and it I do not find how to make it work with MC. I will go back to my ugly solution (but this is raging because snapshotcello was an important element) to me it should be part of metacello. But metacello is probably far too complex too. StefCheers, Doru On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 4:30 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: For me I think that Moose is bloated. There are far too many packages loaded by default XML NeoCSV .... Stef On 26/6/14 12:49, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:It's on the original Moose job, just another archive called moose-less.zip The problem is not in Moose. It's even not in the tools, but for now Pharo doesn't provide a good configuration mechanics. I would prefer to be asked when I start the image for the first time if I want to use the alternative theme or tools. And if I don't, I'd prefer to stay with my own setup. We don't have this, and Moose job configures the image for everyone (without asking of course). That's I archive the image before the script is being run, so I can download it and set it up for myself. For example I use dark theme and apple fonts, but I can't force others to use my configuration. Uko Sent from my iPhone On 26 Jun 2014, at 12:03, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:Where is your ci? Because Hi yuri where is your ci? Because moose is becoming bloated and I think that we should rethink it. StefThe thing is that after loading all packages current build job runs magical script that sets up theme, tools and so on. Now moose-less image is archived before this script is being run. So then I can set up the inspector and so on by myself, while everything other remains like in vanilla pharo. Uko> > Stef >> >> Uko >> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:37, Alexandre Bergel alexandre.bergel@me.com wrote:
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I don’t like the debugger. I have no idea why. But as for me, the problem is not in the GT tools them selves, but in the lack of possibility to decide.
Uko
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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The problem I have with the debugger, is that it is a bit slow. But the colored list and being able to press Cmd-O within it is amazing…
Alexandre
I also noted that it is slower than I would want it to be, but I am not sure why it is the case. We should measure that.
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Alexandre Bergel alexandre.bergel@me.com wrote:
The problem I have with the debugger, is that it is a bit slow. But the colored list and being able to press Cmd-O within it is amazing…
Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk yuriy.tymchuk@me.com wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:37, Alexandre Bergel alexandre.bergel@me.com wrote:
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I don’t like the debugger. I have no idea why. But as for me, the problem is not in the GT tools them selves, but in the lack of possibility to decide.
Uko
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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I'm almost sure it has something to do with displaying a MethodContext within the inspector. I'll have a look.
Cheers, Andrei
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Tudor Girba tudor@tudorgirba.com wrote:
I also noted that it is slower than I would want it to be, but I am not sure why it is the case. We should measure that.
Cheers, Doru
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com
wrote:
The problem I have with the debugger, is that it is a bit slow. But the colored list and being able to press Cmd-O within it is amazing…
Alexandre
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk yuriy.tymchuk@me.com wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:37, Alexandre Bergel alexandre.bergel@me.com wrote:
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I don’t like the debugger. I have no idea why. But as for me, the problem is not in the GT tools them selves, but in the lack of possibility to decide.
Uko
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
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-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Every thing has its own flow"
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On 26/6/14 15:40, Alexandre Bergel wrote:
The problem I have with the debugger, is that it is a bit slow. But the colored list and being able to press Cmd-O within it is amazing...
The problem is that the icons are not using all the space and we have to learn them. I propose you put the names and the logos.
Then it is slow and some key bindings do not work and I often arrive in situations where I cannot even get button/menu or whatever. With igor we were pissed off the last time for just ofr the sake of it. We were debugging font problems that Moose people could have solved simply. Because there is no magic a registration mechanism was missing.
What is cmd-o
Stef
Alexandre
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com mailto:yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:37, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com> wrote:
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I don't like the debugger. I have no idea why. But as for me, the problem is not in the GT tools them selves, but in the lack of possibility to decide.
Uko
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#%21/%7EStephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
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It open an inspector embedded within the debugger. this is ultra cool, seriously.
I made a contrived example here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/TMP/InspectorInTheDebugger.mov
There is really something great in the GT tools. At the very beginning I was not convinced of it. Now I am fully.
Alexandre
My point is that - the inspector does not have to be inside. - now if people wants that then perfect for them - but forcing tools on people is counterproductive
It open an inspector embedded within the debugger. this is ultra cool, seriously.
I made a contrived example here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/TMP/InspectorInTheDebugger.mov
There is really something great in the GT tools. At the very beginning I was not convinced of it. Now I am fully.
Alexandre
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Jun 26, 2014, at 10:40 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr mailto:stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
What is cmd-o
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On 26 Jun 2014, at 14:37, Alexandre Bergel alexandre.bergel@me.com wrote:
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I don’t like the debugger. I have no idea why. But as for me, the problem is not in the GT tools them selves, but in the lack of possibility to decide.
+ 1000
I do not force people to use linux/mac or windows so why all my tools should be changed when I nicely try to fix this system and kill my productivity.
Or Moosers here is what we can do. You pay me this is around 800 Euros a day and I can go slowly and work with any tools you want even bogus ones.
Stef
Uko
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
I have followed other threads about GT from far away. I do not really understand what people do not like with GT. I find GTPlayground and the inspector truly fantastic. Most people in Chile share this impression by the way.
I cannot select text. If you can then this is excellent for you. Now WHY SHOULD I BE FORCED TO USE something that does not work with me when I'm debugging the system?
You know Windows is really great until a syst admin force you to use it.
Stef
Alexandre
On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:31 AM, stepharo stepharo@free.fr wrote:
To be able to work without GT-Playground hijaking all our default tools I did a small package called FixMooseCrap available at
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars
MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'StephaneDucasse' project: 'PetitsBazars' user: '' password: ''
So now after more than one hour I will be able to focus on the snapshotcello problem and now of course I should start to leave. So so productive!
But now I know to remove the white theme, change the shout style, remove playground Stef _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Andrei Chis -
Chris Cunningham -
stepharo -
Tudor Girba -
Yuriy Tymchuk