[Moose-dev] Re: can you say to alex that edges are slow?

Hi Doru, what I want to say is to store the state in the shape, not the value of metrics. For example, if the number 1 is represented by #red and 2 by #blue, the model could store 1 or 2, but not necessary. But Mondrian should store #red or #blue. With this, we do not need a cache in the model which is not needed and maybe complicated to do in a non-Moose model. Cheers, Jannik On Jun 9, 2010, at 23:06 , Tudor Girba wrote: > Just one more thing. > > The only trick to cache the shapes for each element, is that we > have to store the values in the element, not in the shape. That is > because the shape is shared between multiple elements. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 9 Jun 2010, at 23:05, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >>> yes but there is something that I don't understand: >>> why each node and edges does not keep these state ? >>> width and height are cool to keep, but this is the same problem >>> for color, border.... >>> Each of them could have computation beside; so the problem is in >>> general. >>> >>> Maybe my vision is naive but if each node and edge keep its >>> state, we do not need a cache or multiple computations. >> >> This is the correct point of view. The invalidation of the >> visualization should be controlled by the developer. >> >> Doru >> >> >>> There is something not clear for me :) >>> >>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 22:19 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>> >>>> I can add something like: >>>> MOShape>>enableCache >>>> MOShape>>disableCache >>>> >>>> In that case, width: and height: will be computed just once per >>>> node. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Alexandre >>>> >>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:09, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Doru, >>>>> >>>>> Sure, we will see the computation in blueprint, and make a cache. >>>>> Now, the problem is more general: >>>>> I have the same problem with eDSM: Some edges and nodes make >>>>> computation during rendering, which slow down the visualization. >>>>> >>>>> So, my question is more general: maybe Mondrian should >>>>> integrate the cache system, not each work we do. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Jannik >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 21:58 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 17:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arf, the transmission of the file has probably failed. >>>>>>> So, what is done with bluprint: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Load Moose in Moose, >>>>>>> Take all model packages, generate outgoing blueprint. >>>>>>> It is easier like that :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, there is something that I do not understand: why >>>>>>> Mondrian compute all the time. >>>>>>> Should not it compute one time and put in cache results ? >>>>>>> If it is done in Mondrian, it will be more compatible with >>>>>>> all things that we can do ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am not saying that Mondrian is doing that, I am saying that >>>>>> if we want to debug the problem we want to isolate the >>>>>> case :). That is why, if we just want to see how slow/fast the >>>>>> rendering is, we want as less extra computation as possible in >>>>>> the benchmark. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 17:06 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Something seems to be wrong with the zip file because the >>>>>>>> decompression fails. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want to try just the perfromance, please just create >>>>>>>> a new script that explicitly creates the nodes and edges and >>>>>>>> sets the size and color of shapes. It could be that the >>>>>>>> computation is problematic, or it could be that Mondrian >>>>>>>> calls this computation too many times. Using such a script >>>>>>>> allows us to get an idea of where the problem is. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ok, I understand. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So the perfect thing is to compute all metrics before the >>>>>>>>> script, or use a moose cache. >>>>>>>>> I think that blueprint use cook, with a cache. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can fing t image here: >>>>>>>>> http://jannik-laval.eu/assets/files/blueprint.zip >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 16:08 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we will do this. >>>>>>>>>>> Now, I do not understand the relation between metrics >>>>>>>>>>> (which is computed before visualization) and scrolling >>>>>>>>>>> the canvas. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Does Mondrian compute something when we scroll ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mondrian itself no. But it evaluates the block you provide >>>>>>>>>> when defining shape (e.g., height: and width:) each time a >>>>>>>>>> refresh is done. Which occurs when you scroll. >>>>>>>>>> I would like to verify if the metrics you use are really >>>>>>>>>> computed just once. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 15:46 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It absolutely possible that I missed opportunities for >>>>>>>>>>>> optimization. But I would like to be sure that the >>>>>>>>>>>> metrics you use are not responsible for the slowness. >>>>>>>>>>>> Can you produce a complete sequence on how I can >>>>>>>>>>>> reproduce the problem, starting from a Moose one-click >>>>>>>>>>>> image? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 09:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just see Package Blueprint working on Pharo1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Remi shows a case study : >>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a visualization of 50 packages (so, not a lot), >>>>>>>>>>>>> it is clearly difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is not an edges problem, I do not know if this >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem comes from Mondrian or Morphic... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But for sure, it is not attractive. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian exists to generate faster visualization by >>>>>>>>>>>>> scripting. >>>>>>>>>>>>> If the visualization is not scrollable, and not usable >>>>>>>>>>>>> with modern computers as we have, do you think Mondrian >>>>>>>>>>>>> is useful ? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is here: We write one time the script, we >>>>>>>>>>>>> generate frequently visualization. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Users prefer a fast visualization than a fast scripting >>>>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The perfect is to have the two. And I think that >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian can do this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should do work on it (an engineer ?). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my reflexion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 14:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already tried with a complex case. Indeed it is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot faster than before, thank you :D >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is what I would expect. There was a bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduced with the zOrder. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should have similar speed up on pharo 1.0. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The #5 is a treeLayout (with less edges) and on it I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't move the scrollbar.. got stuck for minutes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried again, and I had the same problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure that the problem comes from Mondrian? You >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can use Kai, the profiler I worked on to easily see >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where the problem comes from. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> KaiProfiler viewProfiling: [ "your code here" ] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.squeaksource.com/Spy.html >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will check if i am doing something different for that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visualization (thought is the simplest one), and will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let you know. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2010, at 14:46, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Veronica (and Jannik), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem should now be fixed. The last version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian is 3 times faster when displaying inner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nodes and edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it solve your problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2010, at 05:27, Veronica Isabel Uquillas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inspecting visualizations when many edges are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> present is really a problem... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there any improvement with respect to this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 22:53, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok. I have a set of benchmarks that noticed a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slowdown. I hope this will be addressed soon (a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> student is currently working on it). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 07:59, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The script make a while and crash the image. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 23:07 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik, can you try to generate a DSM with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version Mondrian-Alexandre_Bergel.355.mcz and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me whether it is faster or not ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess Veronica can not do it since dashed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lines did not exist in 355. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 15:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the same for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With an eDSM, it is really difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already make some reports of this problem... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I am not sure it is caused by edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 21:31 , Veronica Isabel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uquillas Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when my visualizations have many elements in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> general is slow, but sometimes is impossible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or takes more than 1 min) to move the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrollbar or switch to other windows... I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think the edges are causing this problem, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i am not sure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will send you an example of this case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 20:09, Alexandre Bergel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are edges slower than before? I recently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed a slowdown, but it is not that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apparent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many edges are intended to be defined? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 13:41, stephane ducasse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you do not tell him, he will never notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First Rule: give feedback! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ,.;:~ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list 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_______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> --- >>> Jannik Laval >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it." >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know > her." > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev --- Jannik Laval _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev