[Moose-dev] Re: can you say to alex that edges are slow?

On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> enableCache should always be on. When exactly don't we want that? :) > > When used with Moose yes. But you may want to see changes in a view > when you change your model. but then you invalidate the cache of the associated nodes and edges. >> If you want to update the visualization you should redo it via >> another means. > > Yes. I am working on this right now. It shouldn't be too hard > > Alexandre > >> >> On 9 Jun 2010, at 22:19, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> >>> I can add something like: >>> MOShape>>enableCache >>> MOShape>>disableCache >>> >>> In that case, width: and height: will be computed just once per >>> node. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Alexandre >>> >>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:09, Laval Jannik wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Doru, >>>> >>>> Sure, we will see the computation in blueprint, and make a cache. >>>> Now, the problem is more general: >>>> I have the same problem with eDSM: Some edges and nodes make >>>> computation during rendering, which slow down the visualization. >>>> >>>> So, my question is more general: maybe Mondrian should integrate >>>> the cache system, not each work we do. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Jannik >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 21:58 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>> >>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 17:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Arf, the transmission of the file has probably failed. >>>>>> So, what is done with bluprint: >>>>>> >>>>>> Load Moose in Moose, >>>>>> Take all model packages, generate outgoing blueprint. >>>>>> It is easier like that :) >>>>>> >>>>>> But, there is something that I do not understand: why Mondrian >>>>>> compute all the time. >>>>>> Should not it compute one time and put in cache results ? >>>>>> If it is done in Mondrian, it will be more compatible with all >>>>>> things that we can do ? >>>>> >>>>> I am not saying that Mondrian is doing that, I am saying that >>>>> if we want to debug the problem we want to isolate the case :). >>>>> That is why, if we just want to see how slow/fast the rendering >>>>> is, we want as less extra computation as possible in the >>>>> benchmark. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Jannik >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 17:06 , Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jannik, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Something seems to be wrong with the zip file because the >>>>>>> decompression fails. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you want to try just the perfromance, please just create a >>>>>>> new script that explicitly creates the nodes and edges and >>>>>>> sets the size and color of shapes. It could be that the >>>>>>> computation is problematic, or it could be that Mondrian >>>>>>> calls this computation too many times. Using such a script >>>>>>> allows us to get an idea of where the problem is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 16:23, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok, I understand. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So the perfect thing is to compute all metrics before the >>>>>>>> script, or use a moose cache. >>>>>>>> I think that blueprint use cook, with a cache. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can fing t image here: >>>>>>>> http://jannik-laval.eu/assets/files/blueprint.zip >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 16:08 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, we will do this. >>>>>>>>>> Now, I do not understand the relation between metrics >>>>>>>>>> (which is computed before visualization) and scrolling the >>>>>>>>>> canvas. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Does Mondrian compute something when we scroll ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mondrian itself no. But it evaluates the block you provide >>>>>>>>> when defining shape (e.g., height: and width:) each time a >>>>>>>>> refresh is done. Which occurs when you scroll. >>>>>>>>> I would like to verify if the metrics you use are really >>>>>>>>> computed just once. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 15:46 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It absolutely possible that I missed opportunities for >>>>>>>>>>> optimization. But I would like to be sure that the >>>>>>>>>>> metrics you use are not responsible for the slowness. Can >>>>>>>>>>> you produce a complete sequence on how I can reproduce >>>>>>>>>>> the problem, starting from a Moose one-click image? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2010, at 09:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alex, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just see Package Blueprint working on Pharo1.1 >>>>>>>>>>>> Jean Remi shows a case study : >>>>>>>>>>>> It is a visualization of 50 packages (so, not a lot), it >>>>>>>>>>>> is clearly difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>> This is not an edges problem, I do not know if this >>>>>>>>>>>> problem comes from Mondrian or Morphic... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But for sure, it is not attractive. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian exists to generate faster visualization by >>>>>>>>>>>> scripting. >>>>>>>>>>>> If the visualization is not scrollable, and not usable >>>>>>>>>>>> with modern computers as we have, do you think Mondrian >>>>>>>>>>>> is useful ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is here: We write one time the script, we >>>>>>>>>>>> generate frequently visualization. >>>>>>>>>>>> Users prefer a fast visualization than a fast scripting >>>>>>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>>>>>>> The perfect is to have the two. And I think that >>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian can do this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we should do work on it (an engineer ?). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just my reflexion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 9, 2010, at 14:24 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already tried with a complex case. Indeed it is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot faster than before, thank you :D >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is what I would expect. There was a bug introduced >>>>>>>>>>>>> with the zOrder. >>>>>>>>>>>>> You should have similar speed up on pharo 1.0. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The #5 is a treeLayout (with less edges) and on it I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't move the scrollbar.. got stuck for minutes. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tried again, and I had the same problem. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure that the problem comes from Mondrian? You >>>>>>>>>>>>> can use Kai, the profiler I worked on to easily see >>>>>>>>>>>>> where the problem comes from. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> KaiProfiler viewProfiling: [ "your code here" ] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> www.squeaksource.com/Spy.html >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will check if i am doing something different for that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visualization (thought is the simplest one), and will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> let you know. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08 Jun 2010, at 14:46, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Veronica (and Jannik), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem should now be fixed. The last version of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mondrian is 3 times faster when displaying inner >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nodes and edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it solve your problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2010, at 05:27, Veronica Isabel Uquillas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inspecting visualizations when many edges are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> present is really a problem... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there any improvement with respect to this problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 22:53, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok. I have a set of benchmarks that noticed a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slowdown. I hope this will be addressed soon (a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> student is currently working on it). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24 Apr 2010, at 07:59, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The script make a while and crash the image. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 23:07 , Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik, can you try to generate a DSM with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version Mondrian-Alexandre_Bergel.355.mcz and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tell me whether it is faster or not ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I guess Veronica can not do it since dashed lines >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did not exist in 355. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 15:41, Laval Jannik wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the same for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With an eDSM, it is really difficult to scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already make some reports of this problem... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I am not sure it is caused by edges. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 21:31 , Veronica Isabel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Uquillas Gomez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alexandre, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when my visualizations have many elements in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> general is slow, but sometimes is impossible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or takes more than 1 min) to move the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrollbar or switch to other windows... I think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the edges are causing this problem, but i am >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not sure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will send you an example of this case. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Veronica >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 20:09, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are edges slower than before? I recently >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noticed a slowdown, but it is not that apparent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many edges are intended to be defined? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23 Apr 2010, at 13:41, stephane ducasse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you do not tell him, he will never notice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First Rule: give feedback! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Every thing should have the right to be different." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> Jannik Laval >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're >>>>> fighting is the right one." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Jannik Laval >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "It's not how it is, it is how we see it." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev