[Moose-dev] Re: OverviewPyramid smalltalk thresholds?

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Nicolas Anquetil &lt;nicolas.anquetil(a)inria.fr > what are the metrics? > - cycloLoc is cyclomatic / loc ? > - locNom = loc / #method ? > - nomNoc = avergae number of method per class ? > - nocNop = avergae number of class per package ? > - callNom = average # of calls each methods makes? > - fanoutCalls = the ratio between external calls to total calls -- shows > the coupling of the system > - andc ? -- average number of derived classes > - ahh ? -- average hierarchy height > > nicolas > > ------------------------------ > > *De: *"Ciprian Teodorov" &lt;ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr&gt; > *À: *"Moose-related development" &lt;moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch&gt; > *Envoyé: *Vendredi 28 Octobre 2011 18:21:47 > *Objet: *[Moose-dev] Re: OverviewPyramid smalltalk thresholds? > > > Hi all, > > During the last days I've been trying to get some statistical thresholds > about smalltalk to use with the OverviewPyramid Moose visualisation. > > So here are the numbers I've got so far: > MetricName Low Average High #cycloLoc 0,18 0,22 0,26 #locNom 5,59 > 6,91 8,89 #nomNoc 9,28 11,24 14,18 #nocNop 6,38 8,57 12,62 #callNom > 3,59 5,46 7,33 #fanoutCalls 0,18 0,23 0,31 #andc 0,41 0,60 0,76 #ahh > 1,72 2,22 2,98 > The number were computer based on the evaluation of 20 smalltalk projects. > The Metacello configuration of each project was used to get the particular > composing packages. The Projects in question are: > > 'SmallDude' 'Gofer' 'Magma' 'Pier2' 'Merlin' 'Seaside30' > 'Magritte2' 'Fame' 'DSM' 'Filesystem' 'HelpSystem' 'EyeSee' > 'Metacello' 'Fuel' 'Glamour' 'MooseAlgos' 'Kumpel' 'Mondrian' > 'PetitParser' 'XMLSupport' > Please let me know what do you think about the quality of the results... > I'm open to suggestions especially in terms other projects which could be > includes. The constraint being that I need to have the Metacello > configuration for the package. > > As for the code used to get these results I'll make it available on the > squeaksource repository, once I clean it up a little bit. > > Have a great day, > Ciprian > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Ciprian Teodorov < > ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:10 AM, Tudor Girba &lt;tudor(a)tudorgirba.com&gt;wrote;wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Going purely the Metacello way is less proper for your purpose because >>> you are looking for a statistics, and due to project dependencies, you will >>> get to measure common projects multiple times. >>> >> yep ... you are right >> >>> >>> However, if you have a Metacello configuration, you can easily obtain the >>> packages involved and their respective repositories. You can then use this >>> information with the Monticello importer. At least theoretically :) >>> >>> ok I will look into that... for now I have an MonticelloImporter that >> works .... well almost ... ;) >> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 24 Oct 2011, at 23:47, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: >>> >>> > That's cool ... from my perspective I think a metacello importer will >>> do a better job... since it is closer to the idea of a project than the >>> monticello repositories which sometimes are very fine grained. >>> > >>> > So if you manage to get a working version of the metacello importer >>> please let me know. Meanwhile I'll try to figure this out using the >>> monticello importer - importing either the whole repository or just selected >>> packages following a handcrafted, subjective heuristic ;) >>> > >>> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:18 PM, Alexandre Bergel < >>> alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>>> > I am currently working on a metacello importer. I have been slow on >>> this due to numerous deadlines. Having someone bothering me regularly will >>> definitely help reshuffling my todo list :-) >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Alexandre >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Le 24 oct. 2011 à 17:58, Tudor Girba &lt;tudor(a)tudorgirba.com&gt; a écrit : >>> > >>> > > Hi Ciprian, >>> > > >>> > > That is precisely what I had in mind when I said that we need someone >>> to do it :). >>> > > >>> > > For a list of projects, I would indeed do it like Alex is saying: by >>> traversing projects from squeaksource. One idea is to use the >>> MonticelloImporter to do it from Moose. The only thing would be to implement >>> the relevant metrics for this importer. >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > Doru >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On 24 Oct 2011, at 22:47, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Hi Doru, >>> > >> >>> > >> Thank you for your answer... It's too bad we don't have these >>> figures... What do you say about creating a list of projects that could be >>> used to create such a baseline. I don't really have a precise idea about the >>> number of projects that we might need to compute this thing ... but I think >>> starting such a list might be a good idea. And then based on that we can >>> eventually try to get the results. >>> > >> >>> > >> In the Book: Object-oriented Metrics in Practice the authors used 45 >>> java and 37 c++ systems to get these numbers ... so I think we have to find >>> at least 30 projects maybe. >>> > >> >>> > >> I am not promising anything but maybe I will find some time over the >>> next few weeks that I can dedicate to doing this. >>> > >> >>> > >> What do you guys say? >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Tudor Girba &lt;tudor(a)tudorgirba.com&gt; >>>>> > >> Hi, >>> > >> >>> > >> We do not have those thresholds for Smalltalk, yet. It would be >>> interesting to get them, though. We only need someone to do it :) >>> > >> >>> > >> Cheers, >>> > >> Doru >>> > >> >>> > >> On 24 Oct 2011, at 22:03, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >>> Thanks for your prompt answer. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Alexandre Bergel < >>> alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>>> > >>> No idea about the threshold. I find system complexity and class >>> blueprint quite useful to get a first impression of a system. I then usually >>> visualize the dependencies. >>> > >>> If I really want to understand the system, then writing unit tests >>> will do the thing. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> I completely agree with you on these points... >>> > >>> but from my point of view I think that the overviewpyramid can be a >>> very good visualisation >>> > >>> to quickly present your system's complexity to others... especially >>> during a presentation... >>> > >>> and then you can freely dive into more detailed aspect with the >>> system complexity and >>> > >>> class blueprint - to show specific points. However, without a >>> statistically significant smalltalk baseline (the threshold) >>> > >>> the pyramid doesn't convey much information especially to an >>> external viewer... >>> > >>> >>> > >>> so my point is, since we have the java and c++ cases, why not get >>> some smalltalk (or maybe pharo-specific) >>> > >>> numbers also - especially since Moose is implemented in smalltalk. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> regards, >>> > >>> ciprian >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Alexandre >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> On 24 Oct 2011, at 16:06, Ciprian Teodorov wrote: >>> > >>> >>> > >>>> Hi all, >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> I'm new to using moose for analyzing a rather large smalltalk >>> project developed during the last 16-17 years. >>> > >>>> I hope that using Moose framework will give positive insights on >>> the hot-spots of the system in order to improve its structure, and make it >>> more maintainable. >>> > >>>> The project name is Madeo ( >>> http://stiff.univ-brest.fr/BINIOU/MADEO) a FPGA design-automation >>> toolkit developed mainly by one of my PhD supervisors (Loic Lagadec). >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> To start the evaluation I believe that the overview pyramid is a >>> very good starting point in order to get a generic idea about the system. >>> > >>>> However, I was not able to find any smalltalk threshold values in >>> the moose image. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> So my question is if there is somebody having some idea about the >>> > >>>> smalltalk threshold values for the OverviewPyramid. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> If yes, could you provide me these figures, and eventually point >>> me to a scientific paper presenting these results. >>> > >>>> If not, I'm willing to try to get these figures myself... however >>> I don't really know which smalltalk projects I could use to get good >>> results. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Thank you very much for your attention. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Best wishes, >>> > >>>> -- >>> > >>>> PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV >>> > >>>> Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 >>> > >>>> University of Brest >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 >>> > >>>> mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr >>> > >>>> www.teodorov.ro >>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> > >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> >>> > >>> -- >>> > >>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>> > >>> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu >>> > >>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> -- >>> > >>> PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV >>> > >>> Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 >>> > >>> University of Brest >>> > >>> >>> > >>> phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 >>> > >>> mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr >>> > >>> www.teodorov.ro >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> www.tudorgirba.com >>> > >> >>> > >> "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know >>> her." >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Moose-dev mailing list >>> > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV >>> > >> Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 >>> > >> University of Brest >>> > >> >>> > >> phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 >>> > >> mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr >>> > >> www.teodorov.ro >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Moose-dev mailing list >>> > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > www.tudorgirba.com >>> > > >>> > > "What we can governs what we wish." >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV >>> > Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 >>> > University of Brest >>> > >>> > phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 >>> > mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr >>> > www.teodorov.ro >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Moose-dev mailing list >>> > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Quality cannot be an afterthought." >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV >> Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 >> University of Brest >> >> phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 >> mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr >> www.teodorov.ro >> > > > > -- > PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV > Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 > University of Brest > > phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 > mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr > www.teodorov.ro > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- PhDc Ciprian TEODOROV Lab-STICC/AS CNRS UMR 3192 University of Brest phone: (+33)(0) 6 08 54 73 48 mail: ciprian.teodorov(a)univ-brest.fr www.teodorov.ro