Hello, I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time.

Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi Cyrille, > > The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in > MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow > that holds the MOCanvas. > > Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the > Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon > and possibly others) behind Mondrian. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to >> use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no >> references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the >> class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in >> the code. >> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Presenting is storytelling." > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

When I look to MOCanvas, I don't find any initialization of the concrete Canvas used . There is only a Method MOCanvas >> drawOn:, that then let a MORoot object call MORoot>>displayOn:, that then dispatch the work to each 'shape-class'. But I still don't find where the 'concrete' canvas is used (maybe I should wear glasses :)) 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi, now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. Doru Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: Hi Cyrille, The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. Cheers, Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: Hello, I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Ok. But, first, I don't why MOCanvas is a subclass of Morph (and not a subclass of Canvas) ? MOCanvas doesn't define any 'drawRectangle:' or 'drawSomething' methods, like usual canvas does. By setting some halt in the 'shape-classes' (MORectangleShape, MOEllipseShape), I saw that the method display:on: is called with a 'FormCanvas' as parameter. So somewhere in the code, somoene is telling to MOCanvas: drawOn: aFormCanvas. But it seems to not be in Mondrian 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi, MOCanvas is the canvas, it is a subclass of Morph :). Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:23, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: When I look to MOCanvas, I don't find any initialization of the concrete Canvas used . There is only a Method MOCanvas >> drawOn:, that then let a MORoot object call MORoot>>displayOn:, that then dispatch the work to each 'shape-class'. But I still don't find where the 'concrete' canvas is used (maybe I should wear glasses :)) 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi, now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. Doru Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: Hi Cyrille, The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. Cheers, Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: Hello, I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "One cannot do more than one can do." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

That's exactly what I want to do: 'to pass the AthensCanvas into that drawOn: method. But I don't know how to do that,i don't know where to say: 'the default canvas to use now is RomeCanvas' 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi Cyrille, Ok, I think I see where the confusion comes from. Every Morph is passed the actual Canvas in the drawOn: method. This is part of the rendering loop. What you want is to pass the AthensCanvas into that drawOn: method. Does this help? Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:50, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: Ok. But, first, I don't why MOCanvas is a subclass of Morph (and not a subclass of Canvas) ? MOCanvas doesn't define any 'drawRectangle:' or 'drawSomething' methods, like usual canvas does. By setting some halt in the 'shape-classes' (MORectangleShape, MOEllipseShape), I saw that the method display:on: is called with a 'FormCanvas' as parameter. So somewhere in the code, somoene is telling to MOCanvas: drawOn: aFormCanvas. But it seems to not be in Mondrian 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi, MOCanvas is the canvas, it is a subclass of Morph :). Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:23, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: When I look to MOCanvas, I don't find any initialization of the concrete Canvas used . There is only a Method MOCanvas >> drawOn:, that then let a MORoot object call MORoot>>displayOn:, that then dispatch the work to each 'shape-class'. But I still don't find where the 'concrete' canvas is used (maybe I should wear glasses :)) 2010/6/15 Tudor Girba <tudor.girba(a)gmail.com&gt; Hi, now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. Doru Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: Hi Cyrille, The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. Cheers, Doru On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: Hello, I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "One cannot do more than one can do." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Hi, > now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: > DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. > I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. > Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. Doru > Stef > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi Cyrille, >> >> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in >> MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow >> that holds the MOCanvas. >> >> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding >> the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, >> Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >> >> Cheers, >> Doru >> >> >> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas >>> to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no >>> references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the >>> class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere >>> in the code. >>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Presenting is storytelling." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev -- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."

With the latest changes in Mondrian, Torch has a noticeable speed improvement (except one). I will perform tests and will let you know.

Veronica On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:25, Tudor Girba wrote: > One more thing. > > It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. > > For example, suppose you have something like this: > > view shape > height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. > view nodes: classes > > In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. > > That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >> >> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >> >> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >> >> Doru >> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>> >>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>> >>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >> >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Doru Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > One more thing. > > It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your > blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. > > For example, suppose you have something like this: > > view shape > height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: > each]) size]. > view nodes: classes > > In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, > so N^2. > > That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex > graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting > Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it > can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) > > Cheers, > Doru > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: > >> Hi, >> >>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: >>> DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. >>> Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >> >> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not >> clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem >> comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >> >> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian >> computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, >> scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through >> the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >> >> Doru >> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>> >>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in >>>> MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a >>>> StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>> >>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding >>>> the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, >>>> Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas >>>>> to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is >>>>> no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the >>>>> class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere >>>>> in the code. >>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at >> them." >> >> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. > > Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). +1 Alexandre > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Doru >> >> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. >> >> Stef >> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> One more thing. >>> >>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>> >>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>> >>> view shape >>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. >>> view nodes: classes >>> >>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. >>> >>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>> >>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >>>> >>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >>>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>> >>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

but the example proposed by jean-remi is exactly the same as the one proposed by jannik a while ago this is a complex case.

Stef On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. >> >> Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). > > +1 > > Alexandre > >> >> >> On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Doru >>> >>> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> One more thing. >>>> >>>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>>> >>>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>>> >>>> view shape >>>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. >>>> view nodes: classes >>>> >>>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. >>>> >>>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>>> >>>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >>>>> >>>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >>>>> >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>>> Stef >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> -- >> www.tudorgirba.com >> >> "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

In the Rome examples, we create a Canvas on a 'Form' (and it's on this Form that the drawing will be visible). In all RomeExample, the form on which we display is 'Display' (the class representing the display screen), but we can choose any other kind of Form. So basically , if you want to use a RomeCairoCanvas, you do: |canvas| canvas := RomeCairoCanvas on: Display (or any other kind of Form). canvas drawRectangle: ... .... canvas finish (=> to make the changes visible) Then if you choose to display on a basic Form, I guess you can integrate this Form to a Morph (?).

2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > but the example proposed by jean-remi is exactly the same as the one proposed by jannik a while ago > this is a complex case. Yes, I will work on it. I have to identify where the slowness comes from, from Mondrian or package blueprint. Alexandre > > Stef > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > >>> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. >>> >>> Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). >> >> +1 >> >> Alexandre >> >>> >>> >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>> >>>>> One more thing. >>>>> >>>>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>>>> >>>>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>>>> >>>>> view shape >>>>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. >>>>> view nodes: classes >>>>> >>>>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. >>>>> >>>>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >>>>>> >>>>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>>>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

In that case, it is easy to use Mondrian with RomeCairoCanvas in that case... something like "canvas drawOn: romeCairoCanvas" should do the thing. Alexandre On 16 Jun 2010, at 04:03, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > Hello, > > In the Rome examples, we create a Canvas on a 'Form' (and it's on this Form that the drawing will be visible). > In all RomeExample, the form on which we display is 'Display' (the class representing the display screen), but we can choose any other kind of Form. > So basically , if you want to use a RomeCairoCanvas, you do: > > |canvas| > canvas := RomeCairoCanvas on: Display (or any other kind of Form). > > canvas drawRectangle: ... > .... > > canvas finish (=> to make the changes visible) > > Then if you choose to display on a basic Form, I guess you can integrate this Form to a Morph (?). > > > > > > > 2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > > but the example proposed by jean-remi is exactly the same as the one proposed by jannik a while ago > > this is a complex case. > > Yes, I will work on it. I have to identify where the slowness comes from, from Mondrian or package blueprint. > > Alexandre > > > > > > Stef > > > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > > > >>> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. > >>> > >>> Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). > >> > >> +1 > >> > >> Alexandre > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >>> > >>>> Doru > >>>> > >>>> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. > >>>> > >>>> Stef > >>>> > >>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> One more thing. > >>>>> > >>>>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. > >>>>> > >>>>> For example, suppose you have something like this: > >>>>> > >>>>> view shape > >>>>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. > >>>>> view nodes: classes > >>>>> > >>>>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. > >>>>> > >>>>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> Doru > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. > >>>>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Doru > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Stef > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Cyrille, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>>> Doru > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. > >>>>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. > >>>>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. > >>>>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > >>>>> > >>>>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > >>>>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>> > >>> -- > >>> www.tudorgirba.com > >>> > >>> "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Moose-dev mailing list > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Moose-dev mailing list > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Moose-dev mailing list > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Hi Cyrille, I loaded the code from Athens and MondrianUsingRome, but when I spawn a visualization (like system complexity or blueprint) everything is white. Am I missing something? I did not have time to look into it in more details. Doru On 21 Jun 2010, at 11:55, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: Some news: > > * I still do not know where the 'concrete canvas' from Morphic is passed > as argument to a MOCanvas. Try to put a 'halt' in MOCanvas>>drawOn: and you > will see a long list of indirections that never ends (if your image is not > yet frozen ;)). > I just know that this is a FormCanvas that is passed. I also try to > replace all references in pharo of FormCanvas by RomeBalloonCanvas, but this > is still a FormCanvas that is passed to MOCanvas>>drawOn:. > Therefore I didn't find any good solution to be able to switch between one > kind of canvas to another kind. The MOCanvas is a morph, and I am not able > to control its opening. > > * What I have been able to do, is to modify the MOBrowser to not add the > MOCanvas in the browser, but an ImageMorph built throught the > MOCanvas>>drawOn: method (setting myself a RomeBalloonCanvas as parameter). > It works, but as an image morph, you will not be able to interact (like > with the usual MOCanvas morph) . But you can already see how the > visializations are drawn by basically replacing the formCanvas by a > RomeBalloonCanvas. > For simple visualization (like DistributionMap for example) , there is no > big changes. > So to try it, first, load last Version ofAthens: > www.squeaksource.com/Athens > Then the last version of Mondrian in: > www.squeaksource.com/MondrianUsingRome > And then open any visualization (in the same way that you usally do) > > > > > > 2010/6/16 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > In that case, it is easy to use Mondrian with RomeCairoCanvas in that > case... > something like "canvas drawOn: romeCairoCanvas" should do the thing. > > Alexandre > > > On 16 Jun 2010, at 04:03, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > In the Rome examples, we create a Canvas on a 'Form' (and it's on this > Form that the drawing will be visible). > > In all RomeExample, the form on which we display is 'Display' (the class > representing the display screen), but we can choose any other kind of Form. > > So basically , if you want to use a RomeCairoCanvas, you do: > > > > |canvas| > > canvas := RomeCairoCanvas on: Display (or any other kind of Form). > > > > canvas drawRectangle: ... > > .... > > > > canvas finish (=> to make the changes visible) > > > > Then if you choose to display on a basic Form, I guess you can integrate > this Form to a Morph (?). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > > > but the example proposed by jean-remi is exactly the same as the one > proposed by jannik a while ago > > > this is a complex case. > > > > Yes, I will work on it. I have to identify where the slowness comes > from, from Mondrian or package blueprint. > > > > Alexandre > > > > > > > > > > Stef > > > > > > On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Alexandre Bergel wrote: > > > > > >>> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is > difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When > the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too > difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. > > >>> > > >>> Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed > multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. > So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by > creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I > told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). > > >> > > >> +1 > > >> > > >> Alexandre > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Doru > > >>>> > > >>>> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him > that he did not want to help. > > >>>> > > >>>> Stef > > >>>> > > >>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> One more thing. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your > blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> For example, suppose you have something like this: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> view shape > > >>>>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: > each]) size]. > > >>>>> view nodes: classes > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes > again, so N^2. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex > graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian > fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult > to understand the particularities of each model :) > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>> Doru > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for > us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. > > >>>>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. > Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not > clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from > the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian > computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling > might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. > So, testing should also take this into account. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Doru > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Stef > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hi Cyrille, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in > MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that > holds the MOCanvas. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding > the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and > possibly others) behind Mondrian. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>>>> Doru > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Hello, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the > canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. > > >>>>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is > no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. > > >>>>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the > class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. > > >>>>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at > them." > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com > > >>>>> > > >>>>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, > > >>>>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> www.tudorgirba.com > > >>> > > >>> "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Moose-dev mailing list > > >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Moose-dev mailing list > > >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Moose-dev mailing list > > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Moose-dev mailing list > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Moose-dev mailing list > > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the right one." _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Ok, so if I try to understand a bit the structure: => MOCanvas is just the 'global' Morph (and so not really a canvas ?) that will contains all the elements's morphs => This global morph know the MORoot element . => This MORoot element know each sub-MONodeElement. => Then the MOCanvas Morph can be set to any MorphWindow (to the MOBrowser or MOEasel for example). => It's only when we try to open such a window, that we concretely 'draw' each node (dispatching the work to the corresponding MOShapes). => So the morphic library says to the MOCanvas: drawOn:, wich dispatch the work to the MORoot, wich dispatch to each MONode, which dispatch tho the corresponding MOShapes. Like alex said, the concrete canvas to use is provided by Morphic, and if no one should manually instantiate it, Morphic should also be modified to use by default the RomeCanvas instead of the current ones (?).

What seems to be sure, is that we can't specify easily a specific canvas to be used in mondrian

2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. > > Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). +1 Alexandre > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Doru >> >> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. >> >> Stef >> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> One more thing. >>> >>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>> >>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>> >>> view shape >>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. >>> view nodes: classes >>> >>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. >>> >>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>> >>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >>>> >>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >>>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>> >>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

>> Ok, so if I try to understand a bit the structure: >> => MOCanvas is just the 'global' Morph (and so not really a >> canvas ?) that will contains all the elements's morphs >> => This global morph know the MORoot element . >> => This MORoot element know each sub-MONodeElement. >> => Then the MOCanvas Morph can be set to any MorphWindow (to the >> MOBrowser or MOEasel for example). >> => It's only when we try to open such a window, that we concretely >> 'draw' each node (dispatching the work to the corresponding >> MOShapes). >> => So the morphic library says to the MOCanvas: drawOn:, wich >> dispatch the work to the MORoot, wich dispatch to each MONode, >> which dispatch tho the corresponding MOShapes. In fact you implemented like that reuse the mouse over and other from Morph. Because build it on the canvas direclty means that you should have build such infrastcuture? >> Like alex said, the concrete canvas to use is provided by Morphic, >> and if no one should manually instantiate it, Morphic should also >> be modified to use by default the RomeCanvas instead of the >> current ones (?). > > Yes, you understood correctly. > >> What seems to be sure, is that we can't specify easily a specific >> canvas to be used in mondrian > > Why do you say that? It should be exactly as difficult as with any > other Morph. What cyrille measn is that if you would not rely on Morph but a canavs to draw then we could have just change the canvas. Now it means that we should be able to draw a morph with the new canvas and this is not clear that this is trivial

> > Could you please just tell us how you setup the canvas in your > examples? have a look in the rome examples.

> > Cheers, > Doru > > > >> 2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; >>> I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it >>> is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very >>> complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the >>> issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had >>> multiple problems in the same time. >>> >>> Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed >>> multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still >>> problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more >>> systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the >>> problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of >>> "We need help to identify all problems" :). >> >> +1 >> >> Alexandre >> >>> >>> >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: >>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell >>>> him that he did not want to help. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>> >>>>> One more thing. >>>>> >>>>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your >>>>> blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>>>> >>>>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>>>> >>>>> view shape >>>>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: >>>>> each]) size]. >>>>> view nodes: classes >>>>> >>>>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes >>>>> again, so N^2. >>>>> >>>>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose >>>>> complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in >>>>> getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, >>>>> because it can get difficult to understand the particularities >>>>> of each model :) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Doru >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for >>>>>>> us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be >>>>>>> found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is >>>>>> not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the >>>>>> problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more >>>>>> systematic look. >>>>>> >>>>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian >>>>>> computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization >>>>>> appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time >>>>>> you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also >>>>>> take this into account. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded >>>>>>>> in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a >>>>>>>> StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with >>>>>>>> adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over >>>>>>>> Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Doru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the >>>>>>>>> canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there >>>>>>>>> is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in >>>>>>>>> the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use >>>>>>>>> somewhere in the code. >>>>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking >>>>>> at them." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>> >>>>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>>>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know > her." > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Ok, so if I try to understand a bit the structure: => MOCanvas is just the 'global' Morph (and so not really a canvas ?) that will contains all the elements's morphs => This global morph know the MORoot element . => This MORoot element know each sub-MONodeElement. => Then the MOCanvas Morph can be set to any MorphWindow (to the MOBrowser or MOEasel for example). => It's only when we try to open such a window, that we concretely 'draw' each node (dispatching the work to the corresponding MOShapes). => So the morphic library says to the MOCanvas: drawOn:, wich dispatch the work to the MORoot, wich dispatch to each MONode, which dispatch tho the corresponding MOShapes. Like alex said, the concrete canvas to use is provided by Morphic, and if no one should manually instantiate it, Morphic should also be modified to use by default the RomeCanvas instead of the current ones (?). What seems to be sure, is that we can't specify easily a specific canvas to be used in mondrian 2010/6/15 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)inria.fr&gt; > I did not say that he did not say anything. I just said that it is difficult to find where problems are by looking at a very complex case. When the problems were raised, we did look into the issues, but it was just too difficult especially when we had multiple problems in the same time. > > Now we are in the situation in which multiple people noticed multiple problems, there are some fixes, but there are still problems left. So, we have to dig deeper and we should do it more systematically by creating simpler cases that reproduce the problem. It's not an issue of "I told you so", it's an issue of "We need help to identify all problems" :). +1 Alexandre > > > On 15 Jun 2010, at 14:01, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > >> Doru >> >> Jannik said it several times - check the list. So do not tell him that he did not want to help. >> >> Stef >> >> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> One more thing. >>> >>> It can also be that when you have expensive traversals in your blocks, you can easily get to quadratic algorithms. >>> >>> For example, suppose you have something like this: >>> >>> view shape >>> height: [:each | (classes select: [:target | target invokes: each]) size]. >>> view nodes: classes >>> >>> In this case, for each class, you would traverse all classes again, so N^2. >>> >>> That is why we need canonical examples first that expose complex graphs. And those people that have a direct interest in getting Mondrian fast would be good to help in this direction, because it can get difficult to understand the particularities of each model :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Doru >>> >>> >>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 13:13, Tudor Girba wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>>> now something important is that mondrian is barely usable for us: DSM, package blueprint, torch are all slow. >>>>> I would really like to see some pragmatic solutions to be found. Like not computing all the blocks all over the time. >>>> >>>> This is what we are already discussing, but until now it is not clear what exactly generates the slowness. I believe the problem comes from the edges, but we have to take a more systematic look. >>>> >>>> The other thing that has an impact is that right now Mondrian computes everything lazily, so even if the visualization appears, scrolling might still be problematic the first time you go through the entire picture. So, testing should also take this into account. >>>> >>>> Doru >>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Cyrille, >>>>>> >>>>>> The canvas is defined in MOCanvas. This canvas is embedded in MOBrowser and MOEasel, which in their turn create a StandardWindow that holds the MOCanvas. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Doru >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 15 Jun 2010, at 11:42, Cyrille Delaunay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have been looking a bit for the place where we set the canvas to use in Mondrian, but I didn't find. >>>>>>> I know that all shapes are drawn on a FormCanvas, but there is no references to FormCanvas in mondrian classes. >>>>>>> I just saw that there is a 'defaultCanvasClass' method in the class Form for example, so maybe such a method is use somewhere in the code. >>>>>>> Does somoene know the way to set a new Canvas to Mondrian ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>>>> >>>>>> "Presenting is storytelling." >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Moose-dev mailing list >>>>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>>>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >>>> >>>> -- >>>> www.tudorgirba.com >>>> >>>> "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> www.tudorgirba.com >>> >>> "In a world where everything is moving ever faster, >>> one might have better chances to win by moving slower." >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Moose-dev mailing list >>> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >>> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Moose-dev mailing list >> Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch >> https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Sometimes the best solution is not the best solution." > > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev > _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev _______________________________________________ Moose-dev mailing list Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

Just to inform the others, Cyrille is experimenting with adding the Athens canvas (which provides an abstraction over Cairo, Balloon and possibly others) behind Mondrian.