Re: Pier v. Plone

Jimmie, I have been agonizing over the same choice for months. For now, I am sticking with Plone for my clients. I have worked with Smalltalk since the late 80's and Plone since it's inception on top of CMF for Zope. Plone Cons - Past performance - Historically, I have had major performance problems with Plone including memory leaks leading to repeated server restarts on an almost hourly basis under heavy loads. Performance has improved but I am still concerned for the site I am currently creating using Plone. Software Stack - This is my biggest complaint. The Plone stack is too dependent on C libraries and python modules and zope adapters. For example, connecting Plone to postresql requires a postgresql adapter which consists of a stack in C, python and Zope. Like most OpenSource, all the versions have to be compatible. Just the out of the box stack is python C virtual machine binary -> python libraries -> Zope -> CMF - Standard Products. Addon products such as PIL (imaging library) add a 3 layer stack of C module, python module and Zope module. Development environment doesn't hold a candle to Seaside. Plone Pros - Very active community. Tons of interesting Products. Workflow and security model very easy to customise. Easy to add custom products with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML. Very Easy to add custom content types with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML. **Visual Tools like ArgoUML/ArchGenXML are what are really missing from Squeak. You use ArgoUML to create a UML class diagram for your product or content type. You then run ArchGenXML to create a Plone product from the class diagram. I am currently using this process to create a site with 8 custom content types with cross references and it is very easy. http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/archgenxml-getting-started Squeak Cons - The flip side of all of the Plone Pros. Squeak Pros - I much prefer Smalltalk to Python. I prefer the Smalltalk environment to any Python IDE. I think people write better Smalltalk tools/objects than Python programs. I prefer the architecture and tools of Seaside to Plone. Much shorter stack - Smalltalk VM -> Smalltalk source -> Seaside -> Magritte -> Pier. Fewer C module dependencies for add-on products/objects. Personal Conclusion - Zope/Plone feels like a framework where you are locked into the frame. Smalltalk/Seaside feels like a great tool box to help you build whatever you want. Unfortunately, I would have to build Plone when that is about all I need. If one only needs the functionality provided by Zope, Seaside is the better choice for me. I would be more productive and have a better end product with Seaside versus Zope. I chose painful but functional Plone over Fun but less functional Pier based on the Plone Workflow model, ArchGenXML for products and many available 3rd party products. I really hope to be able to make a different choice in the future. Taun Jimmie Houchin wrote: _______________________________________________ SmallWiki, Magritte, Pier and Related Tools ... https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki