15 Aug
2007
15 Aug
'07
10:38 p.m.
On Aug 15, 2007, at 12:54 PM, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Hello Taun,
Thanks for the reply.
Taun wrote:
I couldn't resist any longer ;)
These are my opinions from my experience, so take them with the
proverbial grain of salt :)
My company is a Python shop - we have many commercial products on the
desktop that are all written in Python and it has served us well...
That being said, all our web development work is in ... Seaside
I have a lot of experience with Zope, I started using it when it was
a commercial product known as Principia. I built several sites out of
it in the 2.x timeframe, and have delved a bit into 3.0 to see how
things had progressed.
The things that killed me over time were some of the main "selling
points". With Zope/Plone there is a plethora of third party modules
and or plugins you can use, with varying levels of configurability or
extensibility. I used several of these types of Zope plugins and was
usually bit when the zope platform upgraded and they no longer
worked, or were not backward compatible because of ZODB being
underneath everything. I know that Plone mitigates some that risk;
the Plone layer itself is dealing with it.
I intensely disliked that fact that I could create "products", mostly
strait python code, use a templating language (ZPT or others), and
also edit things through the web using the Zope interface. At first
that all seemed great, but it just ate up brain cycles trying to get
everything to talk together. Zope has a complicated model and getting
to what you need can be a pain. Again, Plone may be easier as a layer
on top.
In Seaside, I write in Smalltalk, whether I am using Magritte, Pier,
ShoreComponents, Scriptaculous, etc; and a BIG plus for me: since
this is a smaller community, I can actually hire the developers of
these technologies to customize, implement, or train and I really
know what I am getting. It's not so easy in larger communities.
I am someone who has been using Seaside off and on since 2003, and
did not come from an OO background, so have had significant hurdles
in doing things in OOish ways. I can still create just about any kind
of web app I want and do it much, much faster than any of the other
ways I have used, including ASP, PHP, cherrypy, albatross, cold
fusion, etc. No one else might enjoy my code, however ;)
Anyway, my vote is go Pier and Seaside, but your mileage may vary :)
Cheers,
Brian
Jimmie, I have been agonizing over the same
choice for months. For
now, I am sticking with
Plone for my clients.
Me too. That's why I decided rather than just jumping into full bore
with Zope/Plone purely do to the size of community and a great end-
user
experience to post a question here. I am glad I did.
I have worked
with Smalltalk since the late 80's and Plone since
it's inception on top of
CMF for Zope.
Plone Cons -
Past performance - [snip]
Software Stack - [snip]
Development environment doesn't hold a candle to Seaside.
Oh absolutely. One of my big issues when doing Python. I've never
integrated an editor into my brain. :)
I was shocked the first time I installed Plone on my Ubuntu laptop.
AMD64 3200, 1.25gb ram, 100gb hard disk. It took about 30 minutes to
compile and install and was absolutely huge.
Plone Pros -
Very active community.
Tons of interesting Products.
Workflow and security model very easy to customise.
Easy to add custom products with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML.
Very Easy to add custom content types with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML.
**Visual Tools like ArgoUML/ArchGenXML are what are really
missing from Squeak. You use
ArgoUML to create a UML class diagram for your product or content
type. You then run
ArchGenXML to create a Plone product from the class diagram. I am
currently using this
process to create a site with 8 custom content types with cross
references and it is very
easy.
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/archgenxml-getting-started
Looks reasonable. But I haven't yet learned how that works with Plone
3.0 and Zope 3 technologies. I do not know nor desire to Zope 2.
Squeak Cons -
The flip side of all of the Plone Pros.
Yes. But that is why I posted. Does the community desire to over time
work in such a direction. If core Pier could move to and become =+
Plone
core, then we can start talking. Add-ons and products can come when
the
machinery supports the basic usability and building blocks equal to
and
better than Plone.
Squeak Pros -
I much prefer Smalltalk to Python.
I prefer the Smalltalk environment to any Python IDE.
I think people write better Smalltalk tools/objects than Python
programs.
I prefer the architecture and tools of Seaside to Plone.
Much shorter stack - Smalltalk VM -> Smalltalk source ->
Seaside -> Magritte -> Pier.
Fewer C module dependencies for add-on products/objects.
Oh absolutely. I am working on website that I have to migrate to a
machine not under my control. Most likely Windows. I am a little
apprehensive about having him install Plone and me trying to
support/develop Plone/Python on Windows. I am not a Windows guy.
Personal Conclusion -
Zope/Plone feels like a framework where you are locked into the
frame.
Smalltalk/Seaside feels like a great tool box to help you build
whatever you want.
Unfortunately, I would have to build Plone when that is about all
I need.
If one only needs the functionality provided by Zope, Seaside
is the better choice for
me. I would be more productive and have a better end product with
Seaside versus Zope.
Cool.
I chose painful but functional Plone over Fun
but less
functional Pier based on the
Plone Workflow model, ArchGenXML for products and many available
3rd party products.
Fortunately for me. One project I am working on is to replace the
current website which is done in an ancient version of MS SharePoint.
(Yuck!) So, surpassing it in usability is a fairly low target. And I
have the time to make it better after an initial equaling(or
better) of
the capabilities.
The other project I am working on is my own. And for it I am
willing to
work on improving Pier where it may need it, if in the end overall
time
spent is equal to or less than a Plone version.
And for me that time includes, learning Python more sufficiently to
get
my hands dirty in the Python side of Zope3/Plone3. Learn Zope3, Learn
Plone3. And develop both sites.
The learning curve for me is an advantage to Squeak/Seaside/Pier.
So I think a good question is...
If one is starting from ground zero. An understanding of
programming and
maybe some web development. But no mastery of Python or Smalltalk or
there libraries. If the project requires doing Python or Smalltalk
programming in order to fully use the toolset or framework. (ie: not
simply a user of the application Plone/Pier).
Then which one gets a moderate website up and running the
fastest/easiest? I know, very subjective.
I really hope to be able to make a different
choice in the future.
Me too. That's why I wanted to give Pier an opportunity before I stuck
my head into Plone and disappeared for an indeterminate amount of
time.
If said time could be spent being more productive with better tools
and
improving those tools and accomplishing the goal in similar time
frame.
Then I am all Squeak/Seaside/Pier.
Thanks again for the reply.
Jimmie
[snip original message]
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