15 Aug
2007
15 Aug
'07
8:54 p.m.
Hello Taun,
Thanks for the reply.
Taun wrote:
Jimmie, I have been agonizing over the same choice for
months. For now, I am sticking with
Plone for my clients.
Me too. That's why I decided rather than just jumping into full bore
with Zope/Plone purely do to the size of community and a great end-user
experience to post a question here. I am glad I did.
I have worked with Smalltalk since the late 80's
and Plone since it's inception on top of
CMF for Zope.
Plone Cons -
Past performance - [snip]
Software Stack - [snip]
Development environment doesn't hold a candle to Seaside.
Oh absolutely. One of my big issues when doing Python. I've never
integrated an editor into my brain. :)
I was shocked the first time I installed Plone on my Ubuntu laptop.
AMD64 3200, 1.25gb ram, 100gb hard disk. It took about 30 minutes to
compile and install and was absolutely huge.
Plone Pros -
Very active community.
Tons of interesting Products.
Workflow and security model very easy to customise.
Easy to add custom products with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML.
Very Easy to add custom content types with ArchGenXML and ArgoUML.
**Visual Tools like ArgoUML/ArchGenXML are what are really missing from Squeak. You
use
ArgoUML to create a UML class diagram for your product or content type. You then run
ArchGenXML to create a Plone product from the class diagram. I am currently using this
process to create a site with 8 custom content types with cross references and it is
very
easy.
http://plone.org/documentation/tutorial/archgenxml-getting-started
Looks reasonable. But I haven't yet learned how that works with Plone
3.0 and Zope 3 technologies. I do not know nor desire to Zope 2.
Squeak Cons -
The flip side of all of the Plone Pros.
Yes. But that is why I posted. Does the community desire to over time
work in such a direction. If core Pier could move to and become =+ Plone
core, then we can start talking. Add-ons and products can come when the
machinery supports the basic usability and building blocks equal to and
better than Plone.
Squeak Pros -
I much prefer Smalltalk to Python.
I prefer the Smalltalk environment to any Python IDE.
I think people write better Smalltalk tools/objects than Python programs.
I prefer the architecture and tools of Seaside to Plone.
Much shorter stack - Smalltalk VM -> Smalltalk source -> Seaside -> Magritte
-> Pier.
Fewer C module dependencies for add-on products/objects.
Oh absolutely. I am working on website that I have to migrate to a
machine not under my control. Most likely Windows. I am a little
apprehensive about having him install Plone and me trying to
support/develop Plone/Python on Windows. I am not a Windows guy.
Personal Conclusion -
Zope/Plone feels like a framework where you are locked into the frame.
Smalltalk/Seaside feels like a great tool box to help you build whatever you want.
Unfortunately, I would have to build Plone when that is about all I need.
If one only needs the functionality provided by Zope, Seaside is the better choice
for
me. I would be more productive and have a better end product with Seaside versus Zope.
Cool.
I chose painful but functional Plone over Fun but
less functional Pier based on the
Plone Workflow model, ArchGenXML for products and many available 3rd party products.
Fortunately for me. One project I am working on is to replace the
current website which is done in an ancient version of MS SharePoint.
(Yuck!) So, surpassing it in usability is a fairly low target. And I
have the time to make it better after an initial equaling(or better) of
the capabilities.
The other project I am working on is my own. And for it I am willing to
work on improving Pier where it may need it, if in the end overall time
spent is equal to or less than a Plone version.
And for me that time includes, learning Python more sufficiently to get
my hands dirty in the Python side of Zope3/Plone3. Learn Zope3, Learn
Plone3. And develop both sites.
The learning curve for me is an advantage to Squeak/Seaside/Pier.
So I think a good question is...
If one is starting from ground zero. An understanding of programming and
maybe some web development. But no mastery of Python or Smalltalk or
there libraries. If the project requires doing Python or Smalltalk
programming in order to fully use the toolset or framework. (ie: not
simply a user of the application Plone/Pier).
Then which one gets a moderate website up and running the
fastest/easiest? I know, very subjective.
I really hope to be able to make a different choice in
the future.
Me too. That's why I wanted to give Pier an opportunity before I stuck
my head into Plone and disappeared for an indeterminate amount of time.
If said time could be spent being more productive with better tools and
improving those tools and accomplishing the goal in similar time frame.
Then I am all Squeak/Seaside/Pier.
Thanks again for the reply.
Jimmie
[snip original message]