7 Nov
2014
7 Nov
'14
2:25 p.m.
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal
script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
7 Nov
7 Nov
2:33 p.m.
there is a chapter at Deep Into Pharo book, you can download the pdf for
free and also there is a website for Roassal documentation here
http://agilevisualization.com/ , I am not so sure about Roassal 2 though
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 3:25 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal
script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
2:48 p.m.
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find the right balance
between what roassal offers, how people want to use it, and considering the previous
knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com <http://agilevisualization.com/> book, examples
contains in Roassal2, and this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more
than obsolete by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on the Roassal2-Core
then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example browser. Play a bit with it. Once
you understand the basic functionalities of Roassal, you can read more about the builders
(what I think you are referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal without having read the
builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we can reuse
them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I do not
understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In Roassal2, I am
playing with blocks without understanding and without any idea what can be the result
before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need one way to
understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
2:48 p.m.
Hi Kilon,
Yes, I know this chapter :)
But either the chapter or the website are about technical aspects.
My problem is how do I think a visualisation.
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:33 GMT-03:00 kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>om>:
there is a chapter at Deep Into Pharo book, you can
download the pdf for
free and also there is a website for Roassal documentation here
http://agilevisualization.com/ , I am not so sure about Roassal 2 though
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 3:25 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a
Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
3:17 p.m.
Thank you Alex,
This is what I am trying to do. Now just see the first example of
agilevisualization.com, and explain me some things:
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to the
objects. Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object, I
also should add a new element and add it in the visualization. This is not
trivial to understand. Why is it not done lazily ?"
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means
that all the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects, elements,
view. And I do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find
the right balance between what roassal offers, how people want to use it,
and considering the previous knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com book, examples contains in Roassal2, and
this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more than obsolete
by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on the
Roassal2-Core then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example
browser. Play a bit with it. Once you understand the basic functionalities
of Roassal, you can read more about the builders (what I think you are
referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal without
having read the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal
script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
3:35 p.m.
2014-11-07 15:17 GMT+01:00 jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>om>:
Thank you Alex,
This is what I am trying to do. Now just see the first example of
agilevisualization.com, and explain me some things:
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
You forget that behind the RTEllipse, you also have a TREllipseShape, and
that the shapes in the view are TR-shapes, and not RT-shapes, but that you
add behaviors on the element, not on the shapes and ...
Well, overall, I find Roassal easy to get in when going in depth in it
(i.e. extending a TRShape for example), but, paradoxally, it seems
difficult to understand when you're just trying to do a visualisation with
it. The lack of comments does not help, even if the structure is fairly
clear.
And some of the stuff done in builders is really clever (automatic building
of edges out of properties) but hard to grasp. Shaping a data model to
Roassal can be a challenge.
Thierry
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to the
objects. Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object, I
also should add a new element and add it in the visualization. This is not
trivial to understand. Why is it not done lazily ?"
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means
that all the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects,
elements, view. And I do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find
the right balance between what roassal offers, how people want to use it,
and considering the previous knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com book, examples contains in Roassal2, and
this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more than obsolete
by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on
the Roassal2-Core then. Just look at the 'Roassal Example' in the example
browser. Play a bit with it. Once you understand the basic functionalities
of Roassal, you can read more about the builders (what I think you are
referring to with 'scripts'). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal
without having read the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a
Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
4:13 p.m.
Indeed, this is a serious challenge that we need to properly address. Else it may
jeopardize the future of Roassal.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Thierry Goubier
<thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Shaping a data model to Roassal can be a challenge.
4:28 p.m.
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to the objects.
Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object, I also should add a new
element and add it in the visualization. This is not trivial to understand. Why is it not
done lazily ?”
First, this situation is not common. Visualizing changes of a data set while these changes
are occurring has not been a pressing case study Roassal should address. Until you have
sent your email :-)
Let’s go it iteratively. You said : "It means that if I add a new object”
How do you want to add it? What about the following scenario:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
myCollection := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v addAll: (RTEllipse elementsOn: myCollection).
myCollection add: 1; add: 2; add: 3.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If you execute this script, the view will be empty, since elements are created before the
collection is filled. However, I have the impression this is what you wish to have?
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means that all
the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
Shapes are solely about the visual aspect of each individual elements.
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects, elements, view. And I
do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
An element is a wrapper to an external provided object (e.g., a number, a file, your
object).
To an element, you can add a shape (composed or not), and interaction. Elements are added
in a view.
Builders are at a higher level. Builders offer API to build more sophisticated elements,
shapes, interactions and layouts. But it all boils down into shapes and interaction added
to elements, and elements added to a view.
I am updating the Roassal chapter with these information.
Cheers,
Alexandre
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com
<mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>>:
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find the right balance
between what roassal offers, how people want to use it, and considering the previous
knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com <http://agilevisualization.com/> book, examples
contains in Roassal2, and this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more
than obsolete by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on the Roassal2-Core
then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example browser. Play a bit with it. Once
you understand the basic functionalities of Roassal, you can read more about the builders
(what I think you are referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal without having read
the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu <http://www.bergel.eu/>
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com <mailto:jannik.laval@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we can reuse
them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I do not
understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In Roassal2, I am
playing with blocks without understanding and without any idea what can be the result
before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need one way to
understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
4:59 p.m.
2014-11-07 12:28 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to the
objects. Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object, I
also should add a new element and add it in the visualization. This is not
trivial to understand. Why is it not done lazily ?”
First, this situation is not common. Visualizing changes of a data set
while these changes are occurring has not been a pressing case study
Roassal should address. Until you have sent your email :-)
Ok, it is interesting to have a new test case :)
Let's do it.
Let’s go it iteratively. You said : "It means that if I add a new object”
How do you want to add it? What about the following scenario:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
myCollection := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v addAll: (RTEllipse elementsOn: myCollection).
myCollection add: 1; add: 2; add: 3.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If you execute this script, the view will be empty, since elements are
created before the collection is filled. However, I have the impression
this is what you wish to have?
Yes, because when I am using elementsOn: a collection, my idea is that it
should take care about the collection, not the items of the collection.
I saw the source code, and it is not easy to manage.
But in my case, I tried to understand, and extend the RTAnimation that you
propose to me, but it is not trivial.
It can work with RTAnimation and adding that inside it. That is what I did,
but it makes the code unreadable because I add objects, then transform
them, then add them to RT with elementsOn:.
My question here is: can we do it smarter. You could probably propose me a
better way to do that.
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means
that all the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
Shapes are solely about the visual aspect of each individual elements.
Does there anywhere a comment to say for each RT class on what they can be
applied ?
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects,
elements, view. And I do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
An element is a wrapper to an external provided object (e.g., a number, a
file, your object).
To an element, you can add a shape (composed or not), and interaction.
Elements are added in a view.
Builders are at a higher level. Builders offer API to build more
sophisticated elements, shapes, interactions and layouts. But it all boils
down into shapes and interaction added to elements, and elements added to a
view.
Ok, I begin to understand. I will try to write something about my
understanding and the work I am doing. It can help.
I am updating the Roassal chapter with these information.
Thank you a lot.
Cheers,
Jannik
Cheers,
Alexandre
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find
the right balance between what roassal offers, how people want to use it,
and considering the previous knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com book, examples contains in Roassal2, and
this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more than obsolete
by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on
the Roassal2-Core then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example
browser. Play a bit with it. Once you understand the basic functionalities
of Roassal, you can read more about the builders (what I think you are
referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal
without having read the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we
can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I
do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a
Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need
one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
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Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
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5:56 p.m.
I am parsing the agilevisualization.com website.
Here are some questions:
- what is the + for ? --> it seems to be used to compose shape, is there
another way ?
- what is the @ for ? --> it seems to be for interaction, is it the sole
way to use it ?
- what is RTTabTable ? it seems to be something different than
view,shape,edges,layout,interaction,builder
- should I care about trachel when I use Roassal?
Some issues with the website:
- no images:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Builder/020…
- section 9 is badly presented:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Roassal/010…
And this is the workflow I should use:
1- create a view
2- create a shape pattern
3- create edge pattern
4- associate data with shape
5- associate data with edge
6- define and associate the layout
7- define and associate interactions
8- build and open the view
Is that right ?
2014-11-07 12:59 GMT-03:00 jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>om>:
2014-11-07 12:28 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to
the objects. Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object,
I also should add a new element and add it in the visualization. This is
not trivial to understand. Why is it not done lazily ?”
First, this situation is not common. Visualizing changes of a data set
while these changes are occurring has not been a pressing case study
Roassal should address. Until you have sent your email :-)
Ok, it is interesting to have a new test case :)
Let's do it.
Let’s go it iteratively. You said : "It means that if I add a new object”
How do you want to add it? What about the following scenario:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
myCollection := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v addAll: (RTEllipse elementsOn: myCollection).
myCollection add: 1; add: 2; add: 3.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If you execute this script, the view will be empty, since elements are
created before the collection is filled. However, I have the impression
this is what you wish to have?
Yes, because when I am using elementsOn: a collection, my idea is that it
should take care about the collection, not the items of the collection.
I saw the source code, and it is not easy to manage.
But in my case, I tried to understand, and extend the RTAnimation that you
propose to me, but it is not trivial.
It can work with RTAnimation and adding that inside it. That is what I
did, but it makes the code unreadable because I add objects, then transform
them, then add them to RT with elementsOn:.
My question here is: can we do it smarter. You could probably propose me a
better way to do that.
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means
that all the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
Shapes are solely about the visual aspect of each individual elements.
Does there anywhere a comment to say for each RT class on what they can be
applied ?
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects,
elements, view. And I do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
An element is a wrapper to an external provided object (e.g., a number, a
file, your object).
To an element, you can add a shape (composed or not), and interaction.
Elements are added in a view.
Builders are at a higher level. Builders offer API to build more
sophisticated elements, shapes, interactions and layouts. But it all boils
down into shapes and interaction added to elements, and elements added to a
view.
Ok, I begin to understand. I will try to write something about my
understanding and the work I am doing. It can help.
I am updating the Roassal chapter with these information.
Thank you a lot.
Cheers,
Jannik
Cheers,
Alexandre
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find
the right balance between what roassal offers, how people want to use it,
and considering the previous knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com book, examples contains in Roassal2, and
this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more than obsolete
by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on
the Roassal2-Core then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example
browser. Play a bit with it. Once you understand the basic functionalities
of Roassal, you can read more about the builders (what I think you are
referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal
without having read the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and
we can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because
I do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In
Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a
Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just
need one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
6:59 p.m.
- what is the + for ? --> it seems to be used to
compose shape, is there another way ?
+ is used to compose shapes together and to add a shape to an element.
Where do you see it? I normally do not use it in the book.
- what is the @ for ? --> it seems to be for
interaction, is it the sole way to use it ?
Only for interaction.
- what is RTTabTable ? it seems to be something
different than view,shape,edges,layout,interaction,builder
This is a utility class to handle CSV content.
- should I care about trachel when I use Roassal?
You should not in principle. But as soon as your visualization will become complex, then
you need to understand what’s going on underneath, pretty much as in any framework and
library.
Some issues with the website:
- no images:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Builder/020…
<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Builder/0201-Builders.html>
Strange. No pb on my side, but the pictures are in PDF. I have fixed this normally.
- section 9 is badly presented:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Roassal/010…
<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Roassal/0104-Roassal.html>
Ok, fixed
And this is the workflow I should use:
1- create a view
2- create a shape pattern
3- create edge pattern
4- associate data with shape
5- associate data with edge
6- define and associate the layout
7- define and associate interactions
8- build and open the view
Is that right ?
This seems to be a reasonable workflow, but this is not the only one.
In the simplest case, this workflow should work.
Thanks for your comments, they are important!
Alexandre
2014-11-07 12:59 GMT-03:00 jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com
<mailto:jannik.laval@gmail.com>>:
2014-11-07 12:28 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com
<mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>>:
===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to the objects.
Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object, I also should add a new
element and add it in the visualization. This is not trivial to understand. Why is it not
done lazily ?”
First, this situation is not common. Visualizing changes of a data set while these
changes are occurring has not been a pressing case study Roassal should address. Until you
have sent your email :-)
Ok, it is interesting to have a new test case :)
Let's do it.
Let’s go it iteratively. You said : "It means that if I add a new object”
How do you want to add it? What about the following scenario:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
myCollection := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v addAll: (RTEllipse elementsOn: myCollection).
myCollection add: 1; add: 2; add: 3.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If you execute this script, the view will be empty, since elements are created before the
collection is filled. However, I have the impression this is what you wish to have?
Yes, because when I am using elementsOn: a collection, my idea is that it should take
care about the collection, not the items of the collection.
I saw the source code, and it is not easy to manage.
But in my case, I tried to understand, and extend the RTAnimation that you propose to me,
but it is not trivial.
It can work with RTAnimation and adding that inside it. That is what I did, but it makes
the code unreadable because I add objects, then transform them, then add them to RT with
elementsOn:.
My question here is: can we do it smarter. You could probably propose me a better way to
do that.
"following lines create edges, it is
ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It means that all
the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
Shapes are solely about the visual aspect of each individual elements.
Does there anywhere a comment to say for each RT class on what they can be applied ?
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects, elements, view. And I
do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
An element is a wrapper to an external provided object (e.g., a number, a file, your
object).
To an element, you can add a shape (composed or not), and interaction. Elements are added
in a view.
Builders are at a higher level. Builders offer API to build more sophisticated elements,
shapes, interactions and layouts. But it all boils down into shapes and interaction added
to elements, and elements added to a view.
Ok, I begin to understand. I will try to write something about my understanding and the
work I am doing. It can help.
I am updating the Roassal chapter with these information.
Thank you a lot.
Cheers,
Jannik
Cheers,
Alexandre
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com
<mailto:alexandre.bergel@me.com>>:
Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find the right balance
between what roassal offers, how people want to use it, and considering the previous
knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com <http://agilevisualization.com/> book, examples
contains in Roassal2, and this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more
than obsolete by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on the Roassal2-Core
then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example browser. Play a bit with it. Once
you understand the basic functionalities of Roassal, you can read more about the builders
(what I think you are referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal without having read
the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu <http://www.bergel.eu/>
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/ <http://car.mines-douai.fr/>
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com <mailto:jannik.laval@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and we can reuse
them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because I do not
understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear. In Roassal2, I am
playing with blocks without understanding and without any idea what can be the result
before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just need one way to
understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu <http://www.jannik-laval.eu/>
http://www.phratch.com <http://www.phratch.com/>
http://www.approchealpes.info <http://www.approchealpes.info/>
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
<http://car.mines-douai.fr/>_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch <mailto:Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch>
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev
<https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev>
7:01 p.m.
I do not remember why I suggested you to use RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
11:04 p.m.
Hi again :)
I am trying to use a builder and I have this kind of line:
self interaction popupText; highlightColored: Color red;
action: #inspect;
action: #browse.
The problem is that it take into account only one of the two entries.
How can I add the two items in the menu ?
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 15:01 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
I do not remember why I suggested you to use
RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
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--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
11:05 p.m.
I have a graph with nodes that change.
I use RTActiveAnimation
Jannik
2014-11-07 15:01 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
I do not remember why I suggested you to use
RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
_______________________________________________
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Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch
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--
~~Jannik Laval~~
École des Mines de Douai
Enseignant-chercheur
http://www.jannik-laval.eu
http://www.phratch.com
http://www.approchealpes.info
http://car.mines-douai.fr/
11:14 p.m.
2014-11-07 14:59 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
- what is the + for ? --> it seems to be used to
compose shape, is there
another way ?
+ is used to compose shapes together and to add a shape to an element.
Where do you see it? I normally do not use it in the book.
Probably in examples :)
- what is the @ for ? --> it seems to be for interaction, is it the sole
way to use it ?
Only for interaction.
- what is RTTabTable ? it seems to be something different than
view,shape,edges,layout,interaction,builder
This is a utility class to handle CSV content.
Ok, thank you.
- should I care about trachel when I use Roassal?
You should not in principle. But as soon as your visualization will become
complex, then you need to understand what’s going on underneath, pretty
much as in any framework and library.
Ok, that is what I thought.
Some issues with the website:
- no images:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Builder/020…
Strange. No pb on my side, but the pictures are in PDF. I have fixed this
normally.
Thank you, it works.
- section 9 is badly presented:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31543901/AgileVisualization/Roassal/010…
Ok, fixed
Thank you again.
And this is the workflow I should use:
1- create a view
2- create a shape pattern
3- create edge pattern
4- associate data with shape
5- associate data with edge
6- define and associate the layout
7- define and associate interactions
8- build and open the view
Is that right ?
This seems to be a reasonable workflow, but this is not the only one.
I understood that there is multiple way to do things. In my opinion, it is
why Roassal seems complex.
I want to begin with a simple flow, then, I will complexify it.
In the simplest case, this workflow should work.
Thanks for your comments, they are important!
You are welcom. Your work is really great.
Jannik
Alexandre
2014-11-07 12:59 GMT-03:00 jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>om>:
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2014-11-07 12:28 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
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===
"the three following lines are ok for me"
v := RTView new.
shape := RTEllipse new size: 20; color: Color lightBlue.
shape := shape + RTLabel.
"ok, we are transforming a collection of objects into roassal elements"
es := shape elementsOn: (1 to: 20).
"and we add them to the view."
v addAll: es.
"my point here is that the visualization is not directly correlated to
the objects. Objects are transformed. It means that if I add a new object,
I also should add a new element and add it in the visualization. This is
not trivial to understand. Why is it not done lazily ?”
First, this situation is not common. Visualizing changes of a data set
while these changes are occurring has not been a pressing case study
Roassal should address. Until you have sent your email :-)
Ok, it is interesting to have a new test case :)
Let's do it.
Let’s go it iteratively. You said : "It means that if I add a new object”
How do you want to add it? What about the following scenario:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
myCollection := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v addAll: (RTEllipse elementsOn: myCollection).
myCollection add: 1; add: 2; add: 3.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If you execute this script, the view will be empty, since elements are
created before the collection is filled. However, I have the impression
this is what you wish to have?
Yes, because when I am using elementsOn: a collection, my idea is that it
should take care about the collection, not the items of the collection.
I saw the source code, and it is not easy to manage.
But in my case, I tried to understand, and extend the RTAnimation that
you propose to me, but it is not trivial.
It can work with RTAnimation and adding that inside it. That is what I
did, but it makes the code unreadable because I add objects, then transform
them, then add them to RT with elementsOn:.
My question here is: can we do it smarter. You could probably propose me
a better way to do that.
"following lines create edges, it is ok"
RTEdgeBuilder new
view: v;
objects: (1 to: 20) from: [ :i | i // 2 ].
"We are applying a layout to a group of elements, not to a view. It
means that all the expected behaviors are on the group of elements"
RTTreeLayout on: es.
"Here is strange. Why RTDraggable is applied to es and not to a shape ?"
es @ RTDraggable.
v
Shapes are solely about the visual aspect of each individual elements.
Does there anywhere a comment to say for each RT class on what they can
be applied ?
===
You know what I mean. Roassal has multiple key elements: objects,
elements, view. And I do not see the interactions and builder.
I would like to know what is applied to each element.
An element is a wrapper to an external provided object (e.g., a number,
a file, your object).
To an element, you can add a shape (composed or not), and interaction.
Elements are added in a view.
Builders are at a higher level. Builders offer API to build more
sophisticated elements, shapes, interactions and layouts. But it all boils
down into shapes and interaction added to elements, and elements added to a
view.
Ok, I begin to understand. I will try to write something about my
understanding and the work I am doing. It can help.
I am updating the Roassal chapter with these information.
Thank you a lot.
Cheers,
Jannik
Cheers,
Alexandre
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 10:48 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
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Hi Jannik,
You are raising an excellent point! Designing a documentation that find
the right balance between what roassal offers, how people want to use it,
and considering the previous knowledge people may have is hardly difficult.
Let me try:
- There are three sources of documentation for Roassal2: the
http://agilevisualization.com book, examples contains in Roassal2, and
this mailing list. Chapters about Mondrian, Roassal1 are more than obsolete
by now.
- You may want to try to work with the core of Roassal. Just focus on
the Roassal2-Core then. Just look at the ‘Roassal Example’ in the example
browser. Play a bit with it. Once you understand the basic functionalities
of Roassal, you can read more about the builders (what I think you are
referring to with ‘scripts’). Chapter II.1 in Agile Visualization.
An advice: do no try to build any complex Visualization in Roassal
without having read the builder infrastructure.
Cheers,
Alexandre
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On Nov 7, 2014, at 10:25 AM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi Alex,
I am trying to use Roassal2. We can do amazing things with it. It is a
powerful tool.
But, it lakes of documentation. I mean, there are lots of examples and
we can reuse them.
My problem is that I cannot create something from scratch, just because
I do not understand the workflow.
You know, I used Glamour and Mondrian, where the workflow were clear.
In Roassal2, I am playing with blocks without understanding and without any
idea what can be the result before executing it.
My problem is not about language or DSL or API.
My question is: do you have a document that explain how to think a
Roassal script ?
It seems that to make something we can do it by multiple way. I just
need one way to understand the workflow or creating visualization.
Thank you for your help.
--
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9 Nov
9 Nov
12:35 a.m.
Hi Jannik,
Your script is absolutely correct. This is simply a bug that I have just fixed.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
v := RTView new.
b := RTInteractionBuilder new.
b action: #inspect; action: #browse.
e := (RTBox new size: 50) element.
v add: e.
b setUpElement: e.
v
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Nov 7, 2014, at 7:04 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi again :)
I am trying to use a builder and I have this kind of line:
self interaction popupText; highlightColored: Color red;
action: #inspect;
action: #browse.
The problem is that it take into account only one of the two entries.
How can I add the two items in the menu ?
Cheers,
Jannik
2014-11-07 15:01 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
I do not remember why I suggested you to use RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
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On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
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12:46 a.m.
Here is an example on how to use RTActiveAnimation:
-=-=-= -=-=-= -=-=-= -=-=-=
c := OrderedCollection new.
v := RTView new.
v canvas addMenu: '+1' callback: [ c add: 42 ].
box := RTBox new element.
RTActiveAnimation new
blockToExecute: [
(v numberOfElements ~~ c size) ifTrue:
[ v clean.
v addAll: ((RTBox new size: 8; color: Color blue) elementsOn: c).
RTGridLayout on: v elements.
] ];
inView: v.
v
-=-=-= -=-=-= -=-=-= -=-=-=
Does this help?
Alexandre
On Nov 7, 2014, at 7:05 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a graph with nodes that change.
I use RTActiveAnimation
Jannik
2014-11-07 15:01 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
I do not remember why I suggested you to use RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
--
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Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
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1:07 a.m.
By the way, I have just added a section in the Roassal chapter in AgileVisualization. You
can have a look at Section 9 ("Automatically View Refreshing”)
Cheers,
Alexandre
On Nov 7, 2014, at 7:05 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a graph with nodes that change.
I use RTActiveAnimation
Jannik
2014-11-07 15:01 GMT-03:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
I do not remember why I suggested you to use RTAnimation. In which context?
Alexandre
--
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--
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Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
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On Nov 7, 2014, at 12:59 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
RTAnimation
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10 Nov
10 Nov
11:25 a.m.
Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the written mail over and over
again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
4:11 p.m.
Is is mail a kind of noise ?
Are you joking ?
I am trying to understand Roassal, so please, do send this kind of message.
It is really negative: you are saying that I am too stupid to not
understand things at the first time.
So, when you are creating a community, don't send this kind of message.
If you don't like this thread, just don't read it.
Jannik
2014-11-10 11:25 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Dominicus <
frido(a)q-software-solutions.de>gt;:
Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the written
mail over and over
again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
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4:17 p.m.
Hi Jannik,
I think Friedrich is suggesting to shrink emails by avoiding copying all the previous mail
content. For example, below you will see the email you’ve just sent, which is not strictly
necessary.
Alexandre
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On Nov 10, 2014, at 12:11 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Is is mail a kind of noise ?
Are you joking ?
I am trying to understand Roassal, so please, do send this kind of message. It is really
negative: you are saying that I am too stupid to not understand things at the first time.
So, when you are creating a community, don't send this kind of message.
If you don't like this thread, just don't read it.
Jannik
2014-11-10 11:25 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Dominicus <frido(a)q-software-solutions.de
<mailto:frido@q-software-solutions.de>>:
Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the written mail over and over
again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
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4:28 p.m.
2014-11-10 16:17 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com>om>:
Hi Jannik,
I think Friedrich is suggesting to shrink emails by avoiding copying all
the previous mail content. For example, below you will see the email you’ve
just sent, which is not strictly necessary.
Ok, probably I don't understand what he want to say.
But in the standard behavior of a mail client, it copies all the previous
mail.
Jannik
Alexandre
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On Nov 10, 2014, at 12:11 PM, jannik laval <jannik.laval(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Is is mail a kind of noise ?
Are you joking ?
I am trying to understand Roassal, so please, do send this kind of
message. It is really negative: you are saying that I am too stupid to not
understand things at the first time.
So, when you are creating a community, don't send this kind of message.
If you don't like this thread, just don't read it.
Jannik
2014-11-10 11:25 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Dominicus <
frido(a)q-software-solutions.de>gt;:
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http://car.mines-douai.fr/
Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the
written mail over and over
again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
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4:54 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Friedrich Dominicus <
frido(a)q-software-solutions.de> wrote:
Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the written
mail over and over
again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
This is maybe worth having thread of it's own? Because what I've seen most
people (me included) just hit reply and let the email client quote the
previous email(s). For me gmail hides the quoted text in both reply and
incoming mails so it's not an issue for me. I didn't even realize it could
be an issue for someone else.
Peter
11 Nov
11 Nov
1:29 a.m.
> Jannik
>
> 2014-11-10 11:25 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Dominicus
> <frido(a)q-software-solutions.de <mailto:frido@q-software-solutions.de>>:
>
> Sorry guys there is no need to repeat all the written mail over
> and over again. Where's the sound in all that noise?
> On Nov 10, 2014, at 12:11 PM, jannik laval
<jannik.laval(a)gmail.com
> <mailto:jannik.laval@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Is is mail a kind of noise ?
> Are you joking ?
>
> I am trying to understand Roassal, so please, do send this kind of
> message. It is really negative: you are saying that I am too stupid
> to not understand things at the first time.
> So, when you are creating a community, don't send this kind of
> message. If you don't like this thread, just don't read it.
Alexandre Bergel wrote:
Hi Jannik,
I think Friedrich is suggesting to shrink emails by avoiding copying
all the previous mail content. For example, below you will see the
email you’ve just sent, which is not strictly necessary.
Equally annoying are posts from webforum clients that include no context
at all. Its a balance.
I have sometimes felt that editing the full quoted text may violate some
authenticity of the quoted text, but actually editing it shows care in
discussion (and so too does manually quoting from a web forum).
An easy win is to remove signatures from quoted text, since they quickly
bulk up the thread.
cheers -ben
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