Hi Stef,

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 11:44 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:

I think that if we would be really serious about the themes we would do the following:

- Take three persons and ask them to perform some tasks and talk aloud
to describe what they are thinking when they perform a task.
with simply three persons that are not used to a theme you can debug many problems

Thanks for the suggestion. I already did that. It is certainly not enough. But, I think at this point I am pretty much the only one spending time in this direction in Pharo. I am not saying that I am doing a good job, but at least I am trying :).

To me right now I cannot use the white theme. Getting less visual clue is a dead-end to me
because this is not having less the right goal. The right goal is having a theme that is helping
people to work and that it looks good.

Right. Just for the record, the theme that is being used in Pharo was not liked at the beginning either. Now, it seems to contribute to the coolness factor in Pharo. The world changes :). But, it would be more useful to spend the energy on engineering, and engineering requires concrete things.

BTW when we debugged the font problems with igor, we were really frustrated because the debugger
did not let us restart methods (they was no fly by help, no menus….) then we dod not know how in some cases we could get
another debugger with more items (no ideas why) and we got some problem with keybinding in the workspace.

We open an old workspace to be able to work!!!
So of course we can think that igor and me are just two little idiots not understanding what we were doing.

I do not think you are idiots, but if you cannot say what problems you had it's hard to address them.

For example, you say that there were no tooltips, but all actions have tooltips that behave exactly like any other tooltip in Pharo. If they did not appear you might have run into a Pharo bug, but I doubt it.

What do you mean by more items? More actions/icons? Or? What were you debugging?

You know very well that these tools are not the ultimate tools. They are built by people that typically have other things to do, too. But, I think everyone is ready to listen to things and see how to improve. Let's just keep on being concrete.

Now do not expect that people like Igor will spend their time fixing Moose problems (because this was a problem of Moose -
adding fonts without adding them to the crappy ad-hoc registration mechanism was a Moose problem).

Thanks for looking into it, but Moose did not really have a problem with this issue. I did not encounter even one case in which I had to change the fonts after they were set in the setup (the Moose image comes with this setup already done). It's good that now we have a basic in-image font registration mechanism, though.

Igor was nice to help me but do not cry in the future if people do not help because if the basic tools do not work well
why people should freely spent their time helping us. Igor did it because I was forced to do it and we did it together.

I thank Igor and you. But, I still do not understand why you were forced to do it?

I was also frustrated because I also have something else to do than to fight with a debugger that did not have the
default functionality. but icons do not work me.

You are mixing a bit things. We started from the theme, and now you talk about the debugger. Which one is the problem? Both? Equally?

After that experience I was thinking that I should do a new jenkins job loading my version of Moose and do not say it around.
I would imagine that everybody at RMOD would suddenly use this version of Moose because many people are getting frustrated.
I did not want to start a war but I was ****REALLLLLYYYY**** frustrated. I could not see the input field, I could not get the workspace working
and the debugger was wrong. So yes we can say that nautilus is bad but I use it daily and I have no problem to know where to type.

Feel free to ignore this message, but when I will be really mad again I will create a jenkins job and only use this version. I fully understand
Yuriy’s idea to have less Moose! And I will ask the people that wants me to help to only use this version that I can use.

This is not really helpful, but the choice is yours :)

Good night,

Doru

Stef

_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"