Hi,


On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
...
To me I think that it would be good to have a Moosedev and a MooseDeployment part because we have many differnt frameworks in the system

This is certainly an important topic and it warrants its own discussion.

I think we should not distinguish between MooseDev and MooseDeployment :).

I know but now Moose is a large kitchen sink.

It could be a sink, but it's actually not large. With everything included, you get around 2200 classes (if you take Mondrian out, it's about 2000). Pharo 2.0 has something like 10'000 classes.


I will discuss with the synectique guys because I think that when we deploy a tool we do not need half of Moose and after we
cry for space.

I think you are mixing arguments. The Moose image is somewhere around 50 MB right now, but that is without any cleaning. It's true that it would be cool to have it smaller. Your space problems start when you run into 1GB or so, so the initial space is not really the issue.


So we will see what we will do. Right now I do not want to manage my own Moose but if the company needs it, then I will do it
because I'm not spending my week-ends and more just for the fun of it. I have better things to do. 

This does not sound constructive. It seems to me that all the issue was generated by the loading problem. However, this has almost nothing to do with Moose, but with the support that comes with the underlying infrastructure. Every significant Pharo project is likely to have the same loading problems, and I was thinking that we are working towards a solution that will benefit everyone. And yes, we need better tool support but I think that finally we start to see the road.

So, let's have a dialogue. You make explicit what you need and then we see what the real issue is. But, I think you know that :).


With your vision Pharo would be the sum of all its projects and I want exactly the inverse: a small core and 
a modular infrastructure so that people can load what they need. 

But, Moose is modular. We have build jobs for every important component to ensure that each of them is loadable separately. All you have to do is pick the components you want, and assemble your own image. It's just that we release one image for simplicity of communication, not of deployment.

I am sure we can get more modular (for example, FAMIX and Finder could be modularized), but we need the use cases to figure out what is the most useful way to cut.


Now you know like me that this is not in opposition with the other scenario ;)
I think that learning how to deploy is the best way to get the best of both scenario: (1) customed under control deployement (2) full Moose. 

I really see no problem with deploying, but perhaps I do not understand what you refer to.

My vision goes like this:
- Moose is a platform that works for multiple technologies. Perhaps we can distinguish between what makes sense for Java or for a language like C#, but the differences would be small and would not warrant different distributions.
- Moose is a platform for Pharo as well, although not many are seeing it like that. This means that the tools we have with Moose should be used for analyzing Pharo.
- We could distinguish between a Pharo only distribution and the distribution for all other languages. Actually, this is what we have with the GToolkit project: a Pharo specific toolset. However, we still want to have the Pharo-specific tools inside a Java-specific distribution given that we want people to develop their own tools fast. And to debug them. And to inspect them.

We just want clients using our tools because this is even more difficult to find the other clients. 
If we encounter clients that can accept to understand that they can script their own tools 
this will be a different story but a modular infrastructure support both. 

Let's get more concrete. What part of the current Moose Suite would you not need in your image? Or better yet, what are parts that you need in your image?

Cheers,
Doru


So we want all the Pharo specific tools in the large distribution, too.

All in all, we now go towards:
- GToolkit for everyone that wants to develop in Pharo only.
- Moose for every other language (and it includes GToolkit).

Cheers,
Doru

--

"Every thing has its own flow"
_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev


_______________________________________________
Moose-dev mailing list
Moose-dev@iam.unibe.ch
https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev




--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"